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The Chart?


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Old 12-10-2010, 03:52 AM   #41
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I was against the chart as well and ordered a RRA elite operator. In the month I spent waiting i did more reading and canseled my order and went with a Daniel Defense DDM4. Its a Milspec m4, hammer forged barrel, Great 9'' rail, came with Buis, rail covers, mag, for around $150 more than the RRA. It weighs 6.7lbs compaired to 8lbs and is plenty accurate and not one hiccup in over 1000 rounds. Crome lined bolt and barrel all the bells and whistels for $150 more and lightweight. To me I felt it was a better value. I still think RRA makes a great rifle and am just telling my story. I say shoot what you got and enjoy it and would never slam anyone for not owning or shooting a top-tier AR. I dont care what you have if its safe and functions lets go shooting

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMilspecer View Post
I was against the chart as well and ordered a RRA elite operator. In the month I spent waiting i did more reading and canseled my order and went with a Daniel Defense DDM4. Its a Milspec m4, hammer forged barrel, Great 9'' rail, came with Buis, rail covers, mag, for around $150 more than the RRA. It weighs 6.7lbs compaired to 8lbs and is plenty accurate and not one hiccup in over 1000 rounds. Crome lined bolt and barrel all the bells and whistels for 150more and lightweight. To me I felt it was a better value. I still think RRA makes a great rifle and am just telling my story. I say shoot what you got and enjoy it and would never slam anyone for not owning or shooting a top-tier AR. I dont care what you have if its safe and functions lets go shooting
I like this^
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Old 12-10-2010, 02:09 PM   #43
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Another incredibly useful aspect of the chart nowadays is at the institutional level. As more and more agencies are deciding to issue patrol carbines, it gives the gun guys an incredibly useful reference to turn into the bean counters so they don't wind up with a Hesse or Vulcan rifle that doesn't work right.

THe biggest problem I have found with the chart is people don't know how to read it. They can't tell you why having a MPI bolt and carrier is important, but swear it is. Or they ave no idea why being parkerized under the FSB is even included.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMilspecer View Post
I was against the chart as well and ordered a RRA elite operator. In the month I spent waiting i did more reading and canseled my order and went with a Daniel Defense DDM4. Its a Milspec m4, hammer forged barrel, Great 9'' rail, came with Buis, rail covers, mag, for around $150 more than the RRA. It weighs 6.7lbs compaired to 8lbs and is plenty accurate and not one hiccup in over 1000 rounds. Crome lined bolt and barrel all the bells and whistels for $150 more and lightweight. To me I felt it was a better value. I still think RRA makes a great rifle and am just telling my story. I say shoot what you got and enjoy it and would never slam anyone for not owning or shooting a top-tier AR. I dont care what you have if its safe and functions lets go shooting
Nice choice MrMilspecer! Yesterday I ordered a DD 16" LW Midlength upper with the cold hammer forged barrel and fixed FSB from smartgunner.com. Also got a charging handle but no handguards or BCG and it came to only $393 and with free shipping during their special that ends this month. The upper is shipped straight from DD's factory and lots of good feedback on this offer. This proves you can get a high chart rated AR pretty cheap. I'll have about $800 in the build.

I had intended to go with the BCM LW middy but they're more expensive and never in stock plus DD is just as good. Hoping to get it before Christmas!
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:46 AM   #45
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Thanks Quentin. I was sold on Daniel Defense when I read that around 90% or more of the rifle was made in house. Thats a huge investment. Sounds like you found a good deal on your middy upper. There are some great deals out there if you shop around and take advantage of places that price match. I get more gear that way. My next upper will be a middy or rifle length but thats a ways off. Just built a lower with mostly stag parts for a NC .22lr upper and need to budget with xmas and all. Im having a Magpul and Vltor X-mas. Parts are here, I wish she would hurry up and wrap them
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:47 AM   #46
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Good luck with your next build, MrMilspecer! Hope it turns out as great as your Daniel Defense rifle.

I too like that DD makes so much of what goes in to their ARs in house. They manufacture their own CHF barrels which most other companies, even BCM, don't. And their rails are second to none, very lightweight and strong.



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Another incredibly useful aspect of the chart nowadays is at the institutional level. As more and more agencies are deciding to issue patrol carbines, it gives the gun guys an incredibly useful reference to turn into the bean counters so they don't wind up with a Hesse or Vulcan rifle that doesn't work right...
ranger_sxt, that's an excellent point.

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Old 12-11-2010, 02:48 PM   #47
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I just wanted to make a clarification as to my previous post concerning the M-Chart. It is a helpful tool however it is old information. Many of the manufacturers have since made changes to the availability regarding items not listed under their section of the chart. That is what I was referring to regarding my statement about misinformation. Which could very easily mislead a person or agency that was considering the purchase of a weapon.
For example Stag, Rock River, DPMS and others are not true mil-spec however a lot of their parts are closer tolerance than the mil-spec requirement. When we understand that we can make an educated decision not thinking that Mil-Spec is the greatest think since apple pie. It certainly is a minimal standard of acceptance for any weapon I would recommend or purchase myself. Sorry for being so abrupt at first but I knew the chart was somewhat outdated.
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:58 PM   #48
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I just wanted to make a clarification as to my previous post concerning the M-Chart. It is a helpful tool however it is old information. Many of the manufacturers have since made changes to the availability regarding items not listed under their section of the chart. That is what I was referring to regarding my statement about misinformation. Which could very easily mislead a person or agency that was considering the purchase of a weapon.
For example Stag, Rock River, DPMS and others are not true mil-spec however a lot of their parts are closer tolerance than the mil-spec requirement. When we understand that we can make an educated decision not thinking that Mil-Spec is the greatest think since apple pie. It certainly is a minimal standard of acceptance for any weapon I would recommend or purchase myself. Sorry for being so abrupt at first but I knew the chart was somewhat outdated.
The chart provided in the link earlier in this thread is the one from google docs. It gets updated almost weekly...
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Old 12-12-2010, 04:10 PM   #49
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It is not that big of a deal, but if you are referring to the post M-4 Chart Dated 12-8 it is incorrect in regard to product availability by several of the AR Manufacturers. They did a fairly good job on most of the Chart but if that is the one it is not totally correct. It could certainly influence a person to buy another rifle when they were looking at the Chart thinking certain items are not available through a certain company or not of top quality. I mentioned it so that some would not take the chart totally as gospel. For one example Rock River builds 1:7 twist weapons all the time. And like them and some of the others who cares if the barrel is not plated under the Front Sight Housing. Makes absolutely no difference what so ever and is not problem. The Federal Government Agencies have over 25,000 of them in service at the present. But if it is a mil-spec does call for that.
Well enough on this issue! Just everyone buy a good quality weapon and enjoy it!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

03
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:26 AM   #50
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The M4 Chart is made up of one M4gery from each of 14 companies and the model is listed near the top of the spreadsheet. The chart reflects the specs of that model. If a new, better (or more milspec) model has been released it is true that that model might do better on the chart. The problem is that it's hard for Rob Sloyer to keep up with new models and specs. He is working on a revamp of the chart but overall it's up to date on most models. No doubt there have been improvements here and there. And downgrades (like no longer offering an H-buffer). Hard to keep up unless you just trust factory specs and don't inspect each rifle yourself.

The last update that I know of was last February when Charles Daly was dropped when the company went out of business and Daniel Defense was added.

I believe the reason the US military requires parkerizing under the FSB is to prevent rust. It probably doesn't matter in most civilian rifles but it is milspec and many companies are serious about meeting these specifications.
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