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Old 12-09-2010, 07:15 PM   #31
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All I can say is someone spent a lot of time putting the M-4 Chart together but it contains mis-information. As well as some issues are misleading do to the fact for example Rock River and some of the other manufacturers staking is as good if not better than the common Mil-Spec requirement as well as their accuracy standards far exceed that of Mil-Spec. I have seen but very few carrier keys ever come loose on the RRA Rifles and some others. So do not take this report as gospel. And its ironic that the C companies bolt and carrier groups are manufactured by the same company as RRA and others. Bottom line do not use this chart as your total decision factor. The options available by manufacturers are also not listed. Like 1:7 and Chrome Lined Barrels to name a few.
Yes I have seen Bolts break at the cam pin hole. It can be caused by a burr not being removed during machining, high pressure and catastrophic events as well as a rifle that has several thousand rounds through it now having excessive throat erosion which is the majority of the failures. But of course some blame the rifles and the parts when it is a sever case of operator neglect.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:13 AM   #32
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What good is havin' a "Tier 1" rifle (that name juts smacks of PJ-ninja-warrior-SF-SEAL-DELTA to me btw) if you can't afford the ammo to become proficient with it?

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:19 AM   #33
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Well I think we can agree the M4 Chart is a useful resource. I find it invaluable but understand that I'm in the minority here. To me, I like knowing about every part that goes into a build and I like going milspec if possible. I like to build something close to the US Rifle and something with parts I know to be of quality. So I'll pay a little more for that just like I'll pay a little more for Sony or Panasonic or Samsung electronics over Coby.

But I don't want an exact M4 configuration so do break "chart rules" like going with a 16" midlength gas system instead of 14.5" carbine gas and 1:9" twist on one of my ARs. Anyway the main thing is we're happy with what we have!

Hey Slo, great to see you again!

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:22 AM   #34
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What good is havin' a "Tier 1" rifle (that name juts smacks of PJ-ninja-warrior-SF-SEAL-DELTA to me btw) if you can't afford the ammo to become proficient with it?
First, I agree.....

and thennnnnnnnnnnn..................

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:27 AM   #35
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Well I think we can agree the M4 Chart is a useful resource. I find it invaluable but understand that I'm in the minority here.
Quentin, I don't want you to feel that it is you against the world. I, personally, value your insight and your willingness to stand up "against the grain". "You" are not wrong in the same way that "we" are not right.

This is a discussion about a a piece of information that some value at level A and some value at level Z.

When the Space Zombies come, you are welcome behind the lines at Casa D' Dillinger as soon as you can make it brother, no matter what you are carrying.

Don't you change your views because the crowd thinks otherwise. *respect*

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Hey Slo, great to see you again!
On that I have to say that is one of the best comments in this thread. Slo is an AR MASTER and everyone should read when he posts, because he knows what the EFF he is talking about.

When I got up, I hope I know half of what Slo has forgotten....
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:12 AM   #36
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I dont understand why people get so uptight over the "chart." Its a list of manufacturers and what they bring to the table. Its a guide. The manufacturers that are not on the list or ones that score low on the list are aware of that fact. Its a great tool to get sub par manufacturers up to speed. I didnt use the chart for my first AR but have referenced it for the others that followed. Being that I no longer run as hard as I once did an AR from any manufacturer would have sufficed. My way of thinking however is, why not spend the same or slightly more for an AR I KNOW will be in spec and run harder than I can. For me its not so much about guys ewing and awing as I pull them out of their cases at the range. Its the feeling I get knowing the the rifle Im holding could be trusted to save/take a life. There are a lot of guys out there w/ ARs from manufacturers that are hit and miss that have had nothing but good experiences. Once again I dont want to take that chance when theres better options out there.

My Pontiac does fine in the snow but I would feel much more secure in a lifted 4x4.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:14 AM   #37
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I consulted "The Chart" along with many other resources before deciding on purchasing my M&P15. It is just one of many helpful resources available when you are gathering facts pre-purchase.
I knew what features I was looking for and how much I wanted to spend and it helped me save time and effort and money finding which M4 met my needs.

Many of the parts on the chart will have nothing to do with how accurately it will shoot(how many benchrest shooters use chrome-lined barrels?) or even possibly how reliable it will be.
But as far as reliability is concerned, if it has all the internals listed that have been 100% proofed and inspected, I think the chances of getting a lemon will be greatly reduced.
And all this "upper tier/lower tier" stuff is a bit misleading. The Bravo Company is one of the lower priced offerings and has all of the mil-spec components if not more than the highest priced choices. "Upper tier" doesn't have to mean higher priced.

Recently ran my Smith at a carbine competition and took 2nd place overall at 96% of the high score competing against many compensated race guns. Ran 450rds in a couple hours with no maintanence and no malfunctions whatsoever. It didn't have all the "chart goodies", just the ones I was looking for. I'm happy with my choice.
So as long as your choice of AR's meets your goals and expectations who cares what rollmark it has or whatever the "place" it has on the chart. If it doesn't, maybe a slight parts upgrade is all that is needed to make it 100%.
There is nothing wrong with "The Chart", just with people who think it is the only resource out there.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:19 AM   #38
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Very well said Grasshopper.
There are one or two people that don't care for it, most would be wise to consult it.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:19 AM   #39
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There is nothing wrong with "The Chart", just with people who think it is the only resource out there.
Quoted for Truth!!
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:37 AM   #40
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JD, as usual - thank you for the kind words and courtesy that you bring to any discussion. Like any group we tend to get agitated and squable among ourselves but you step in and get us back in a row. That's a highly desirable trait and I bet it has served you well at work and in your personal life. You always have good to say about anyone here, even the greenest newb and are quick to encourage and educate. You make a perfect moderator and we're lucky to have you here!

Thank you for the invitation, if things really got bad and I headed west I hope I could be of some use on your perimeter! In fact no doubt most of us here could be depended on in a bad situation no matter what weapon we were carrying.

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