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Old 12-09-2010, 02:51 AM   #21
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Like I said before I will put my $900 RRA up against any of your $1500+ AR any day of the week I will even let you have any optics you want on yours and I will use my junky Nikon scope.

I looked through Saber defense web site today and didn't see anything cheaper than $1350. They called that one their entry level rifle.

I paid $900 for my RRA and I think I paid way to much for it. Anyone can build one so why the cost? they really are a simple design to manufacture and build. It takes less time to machine an AR upper and lower than it would to machine a simple bolt gun action like say a Surgon or Stolle Panda.

I would have felt like crap reading that chart before deciding on my RRA. They make RRA out to be junk which they are not in my eyes.

I don't think it was the intent of the original maker of the chart and I applaud his time and effort into it as it must have taken at least a year to gather all the specs and correlate the data.

I think any AR on the market today will do what any civilian would want it to do. Even the dreaded Olympic Arms and RRA.

I am saying it might not be the best thing for a first time builder buyer to start looking at. they may end up not buying an AR because they think they can't afford a good one. Or that if they buy a lower end (ON THE CHART) is nothing but junk.

Like DJ said

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And if whoever gets it after I am gone if the sell it then they need smacked in the head for selling a rifle I thought enough of them to give it to them in the first place.
If I have any inkling that any of my guns will be sold off like common house hold items. then I will change my will and no one will get them but the NRA.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:13 AM   #22
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I can't believe this crap is still coming up.

Just buy one of these, and use the damn chart as target material.

Customize your MP168 SPC - Next Generation Arms

Merry X'mas

ooops...my bad, it's not on the friggin' chart. So I'll stick with a DPMS, or Bushy, or RRA, or any of the others that they like to pooh-pooh on the Chart. Oops forgot, I do have those, and they haven't caused brain damage or blown up in my face...yet. By the way, each of those are on their 2nd or 3rd barrel from rounds down range. And they have the factory BCG and trigger groups in them. Sure, might be the exception, not the norm. But out of all the shooting buds I have that own the lower end of that chart, I've yet to see a catastrophic failure of any kind. And these guys are all vets of the Sand box or one of the older theaters with more years than those who tout that Chart.

I guess some things never change. Regards to all.

Slo

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Old 12-09-2010, 02:11 PM   #23
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The maker of the chart often puts his ARs through their paces in various high round count classes. I'm not saying that a RRA or other lower tier ARs wont serve well as range weapons. What I am saying is when you start really hammering down on a rifle is when you begin to see separation between the tiers. The extra $200 you spent on that BCM or DD begins to make since. Not to mention the chamber and various other parts will always be with in spec.

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Old 12-09-2010, 02:38 PM   #24
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I have a hard time believing my DPMS upper won't hang with the higher end stuff. Outside of it being chambered in 223 rather then 556 I say bring the ruckus.

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Old 12-09-2010, 02:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
I mean really. C'mon. These guys aren't doing 10,000 rounds a weekend, they aren't training 4 days a week after work and they aren't going through barrels and gas tubes like changes of underware.
While most AR owners aren't, that is who the chart was initially developed for. It originally came from M4Carbine.net, which used to be the place to go to for information on the AR if you were military of law enforcement. Circa 2005, when the chart first made its appearance, many patrol officers were finally authorized to purchase patrol rifles. At the time, building your own was frowned on in the LEO community, as most suppliers of parts were offering parts that all of the other manufacturers had thrown out. A new rifle was the way to go.

Since the patrol officers potentially needed a gun that would do 10,000 rounds in a weekend, the chart was born. Today, m4Carbine.net has lost much of its ethos in that respect, so you have wannabes reciting things off the chart, who never understood the intent.
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:45 PM   #26
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This chart thing can go on for years.

Run 100,000 rounds of ammo through ANY weapon and you are going to have wear and tear, normal tolerance changes and inconsistencies between units.

If you are just a very basic primordial ooze Muppet and NEVER clean your weapon, never do any basic inspection of your gear and never check to see if moving parts of metal rubbing on each other are causing an issue..... Well yeah, you could have a failure somewhere along the way. :rolling of the friggin eyes:

Buying a Tier 1 isn't going to make you any more likely to survive the Space Zombie Invasion if you don't do your part on maintenance than a Tier 19 weapon owned by a guy who put it together himself with every hard earned nickel and knows his weapon backwards, forwards, inside and out.

The chart is a tool that should be used for informational purposes ONLY.

Buying a Ferrari doesn't make you a Formula One racer.

Do the math yourselves.

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Old 12-09-2010, 02:56 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ranger_sxt View Post
While most AR owners aren't, that is who the chart was initially developed for. It originally came from M4Carbine.net, which used to be the place to go to for information on the AR if you were military of law enforcement. Circa 2005, when the chart first made its appearance, many patrol officers were finally authorized to purchase patrol rifles. At the time, building your own was frowned on in the LEO community, as most suppliers of parts were offering parts that all of the other manufacturers had thrown out. A new rifle was the way to go.

Since the patrol officers potentially needed a gun that would do 10,000 rounds in a weekend, the chart was born. Today, m4Carbine.net has lost much of its ethos in that respect, so you have wannabes reciting things off the chart, who never understood the intent.
And in that aspect the chart was for INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES and I think that is an excellent resource.

But to beat your chest and spit on anyone that bought a rifle that doesn't match the Almighty Chart is just plain arrogant and stupid.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:02 PM   #28
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SLO nice to see you back again man.

I think everyone needds to take a step back and breath Remember good air in bad air out good air in bad air out good air in bad air out good air in bad air out.

OK I put zero stock in The Chart really. I agree that with price many times come quality.

I am not going to expect the same performance out of a CMMG bargin barrel $500 AR as I would a $2500 LMT AR.

My main thing was why do so many people live and die by one simple chart?

If you have the funds and the need to own a $2500 AR then good for you. I just think you shouldn't judge a shooter by the price of his AR is all.

JD and SLO have more knowledge on the AR than just about anyone I have ever meet. Including me I was sent to the US Army Unit Armour course and I scored a perfect 100% on every hands on test and written test. I was even beating guys that spend every day with weapon systems that I had never even seen. I like to think I am rather good with taking apart and putting together mechanical things as I have rebuilt a few motors and helped work on race cars that would run over 220 mph. I am also right handy with firearms.

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Old 12-09-2010, 04:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
dog pretty much nailed it.

It's a Grand Wizard pissing chart. If you have one of the models listed, you get to piss all over those of us who do not.

There have been changes to the military specs over the years, for obvious reasons, since the inception of Stoner's design.

These days, there really are only about 3 or 4 true "AR Receiver" makers out there that run the line and stamp RRA or Bushmaster or Colt on the side and ship them out to the respective clients.

With the state of the high end machinery, like CNC that was cutting edge way back when, being so affordable and productive now, it's much easier to mix and match parts from different sources and still assemble a model that will work just fine.

Take any one of those listed on the chart, put it against a Sabre Defense or a Larue Tactical and see who is laughing the hardest.

In my mind, the chart is about as relevant as Encyclopedia Brittanica door to door salesmen in this day and age.

JD
And they told me it was raining. Mine is not on the chart
and I have only put about 1000 rounds through without any mafunctions. The crown was preaty iffy but I re crowned and now it will shoot 5/8" groups benched at 100 yrds.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:12 PM   #30
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The chart is just a fancy, anal reference.

As stated earlier, routine maintenance and training matter more than which brand you have. Everyone of those listed brand of AR's in that chart will still knock someone's dick in the dirt.
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