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cpttango30 12-08-2010 01:33 PM

The Chart?
What is the deal with the dam M4 chart?

I have looked at it and it just lines out what each brand offers. So many people put so much stock in it I can't understand why.

I am glad that it is not talked about so much here.

spittinfire 12-08-2010 02:02 PM

What chart are you talking about?

The only thing I know of that maked me want an M4 upper was the feed ramps. I know for many they aren't even an issue but if the M4 ramps are more reliable with different types of ammo why not go with them. I don't get into the piston ARs like some....just don't see an advantage.

dog2000tj 12-08-2010 02:30 PM

From what I've read the M4 Chart is a comparison chart of Mil Spec criteria on major manufacturer's Ar's. From posts I've seen here and on the debate gets pretty heated between those in favor and those against.

I can understand the Military's need for certain requirements but for me I doubt my rifles would need to meet such criteria. Name any 10-12 manufacturer's of the top of your head and each one of them are producing top quality rifles, components and accessories. Add in your own personal preferences/requirements and I doubt you could go wrong.

Take for example all the folks here that have undertaken building their own AR's. Since I have been a member here I haven't heard/seen 1 person end up with a poor quality rifle or one that doesn't perform well. All those have been achieved through research and some great advice given from knowledgeable folks here.

Dillinger 12-08-2010 02:39 PM

dog pretty much nailed it.

It's a Grand Wizard pissing chart. If you have one of the models listed, you get to piss all over those of us who do not. :rolleyes:

There have been changes to the military specs over the years, for obvious reasons, since the inception of Stoner's design.

These days, there really are only about 3 or 4 true "AR Receiver" makers out there that run the line and stamp RRA or Bushmaster or Colt on the side and ship them out to the respective clients.

With the state of the high end machinery, like CNC that was cutting edge way back when, being so affordable and productive now, it's much easier to mix and match parts from different sources and still assemble a model that will work just fine.

Take any one of those listed on the chart, put it against a Sabre Defense or a Larue Tactical and see who is laughing the hardest.

In my mind, the chart is about as relevant as Encyclopedia Brittanica door to door salesmen in this day and age. :rolleyes:


cpttango30 12-08-2010 03:22 PM

This chart.


to me it says if you can't drop $1400+ on an AR then your scum. I put little to no stock in it really.

Dillinger 12-08-2010 03:52 PM

Mwahahahah - Average Street Price for a Sabre Defence $1200. Ha hah! Maybe if you want their stripped down bare bones model. Try pricing one that matches the criteria they laid out.

Seriously, that list is so old it makes Cane's gradeschool days seem like they just happened. :D

Quentin 12-08-2010 07:48 PM

Ok, I'll be devil's advocate, though that's not really the proper term since I am a fan of the M4 Chart. I'd say forget it if you've already bought your AR - but if you're ready to buy or are choosing parts for a build, you're crazy not to study the chart. Lots of good information there and it will help you make a better decision.

Take a look at cpttango30's link and ignore everything but the Bolt Carrier Group - look at the difference between BCM, Daniel Defence, Colt then DPMS and other lower end models. If I were buying a BCG I'd sure rather buy a $130 BCM or DD that hits it out of the park with 6 out of 6 important specs instead of paying $10-20 less for one that has 0 out of 6. When you're talking a high stress part like the bolt/extractor, Carpenter 158 steel, shot peening, HP/MPI testing and a milspec extractor are things you want to have especially if you're LE, military or just want a solid defensive rifle.

I agree lots of people do strut around that they have a Tier 1 AR but blame them, not the chart. Also you can buy a BCM rifle that scores at the top for under $1000 so why buy Bushmaster, etc? Again if you already bought don't let it get to you but if you're in the market there's a lot to learn there.

You can use the chart to improve your AR too. I wanted a spare BCG so bought DD to put in my ArmaLite upper. This plus a couple other small improvements raised my chart "score" from 10 to 16. I admit the rifle was reliable before and after but I feel good about addressing those weaknesses.

It's true the last chart update was about a year ago but I understand there's a major revision in the works.

Dillinger 12-08-2010 08:02 PM

Okay, since you took the "FOR" position Quentin, and I value your reasons, let me play Devil's Advocate....

First off, how many rounds is the AVERAGE AR buyer going to be putting through their weapon??

I mean really. C'mon. These guys aren't doing 10,000 rounds a weekend, they aren't training 4 days a week after work and they aren't going through barrels and gas tubes like changes of underware.

If you build your own weapon, as so many have, and you do the maintanence on that weapon, then you should be able to see if there is wear and tear on your components. You should see that things are not as they were when you put them in. You should be inspecting for items that are just plain not up to snuff.

"MOST" proponents of that chart, not including you, talk as if you don't have a "16" score rifle, it's going to leave you dead in a ditch with a zombie munching on your buttcheeks.

If the chart is going to be classified as an information or learning tool, then fine. Call it what it is then.

Here is a chart that tests many features that you may, or many not, want to consider on your rifle purchase or build.

Now, if a $250-$300 BCG group that was hand fitted by Swiss watch makers who chose a new profession makes you worry less about the oncoming Zombie Apocolypse, then have it. But if the guy next to you just wants to have a basic BCG and does good maint on his weapon after he is done shooting it, don't make him feel like trash because of it.

The M4 Chart is not the Holy Grail of the AR world that Soooooo many make it out to be, especially on Tacticool Forums where everybody has call signs and Spec Op clearances.

orangello 12-08-2010 08:11 PM


Originally Posted by Dillinger (Post 399468)
"MOST" proponents of that chart, not including you, talk as if you don't have a "16" score rifle, it's going to leave you dead in a ditch with a zombie munching on your buttcheeks.

I thought zombies went for the brains, or are you commenting on the current location of the poor "non-tier 1" AR owner's cranium?
And here i was thinking Tier 1 was a furniture store specializing in wicker wares.

Dillinger 12-08-2010 08:15 PM


Originally Posted by orangello (Post 399474)
I thought zombies went for the brains, or are you commenting on the current location of the poor "non-tier 1" AR owner's cranium?

That was the subtle reference yes. The person that bought the lower class rifle has crapola for brains and when it jams, the zombies would be munching away. Thanks for ruining it in 3 minutes. Jerk. :p

3 Bears I set upon Your House.

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