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Old 01-07-2011, 02:46 PM   #41
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I can understand your caution but I think its a bit unfounded
LU Double B ( and others ) - I post this merely for informational purposes that might help explain why our members are concerned for these types of posts.

The FirearmsTalk Forum Community is quite large. As far as Firearms Forums go, we rank, and we rank high. While we have hundreds of Supporting Members, and thousands of part time members, we also have thousands of "visitors" a day that stop by and lurk.

Some may be looking for answers, or checking out one thread, but the traffic that is not a present member is usually 5 to 10 times HIGHER than what you see represented at any given time there are people posting.

To assume that what is said here, is only read here by our members is ridiculous. To assume that we have an entire wing of the FBI's Cyber Watch Unit reading everything is equally ridiculous.

But the members here have helped build something that they care about, they look after and they police themselves. That is why these topics raise red flags with standing members.

Imagine you are a chemistry teacher and one of the first questions a new student asks is how to take Sudafed and turn it into Meth??

Imagine you are conducting a class on Income Tax Preparation and one of the class taker's first questions is about moving money to off shore accounts and if you have to report it??

Since the OP is fairly new here, the folks do not know of him more than what he has posted in his introduction. That's it. So when the question of what caliber AR is going to be able to defeat body armor comes up, that is a big deal.

No standard civilian in a normal, law abiding life time will EVER need to "defeat body armor". Also, the chances of any citizen coming in contact with someone wearing body armor is most likely going to be some form of Law Enforcement Official or Military Member.

Both professions we take very seriously around these parts because they are doing a job that a lot of us didn't have the balls to sign up to do.

Please understand that this is not an attempt to tell a newb to shut the hell up. His questions were answered in a hypothetical format after we got a little further into the thread, but to just come right out and ask what round will defeat body armor will cause a group like this one to be immediately concerned of what motives are behind the question and who might be reading the answers.

I think if you, and others, stick around you will see that the members here will answer just about any question, if it is presented in a format that isn't misleading or possibly "of interest" to a criminal element or those that might be looking through our forum to make sure we are not the next militia of the moment.

JD
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:56 PM   #42
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Well said, JD. I'm sure most members here feel the same way. There are some subjects that just go too far (any of us could do that, even innocently) and after all you are a moderator so must keep us in line.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:40 PM   #43
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Well said, JD. I'm sure most members here feel the same way. There are some subjects that just go too far (any of us could do that, even innocently) and after all you are a moderator so must keep us in line.
Quentin, I appreciate the sentiment but I am not really here to "keep anyone in line", I am here to talk guns.

The mod title comes with a lot of headaches, but if they can be defused through sharing information in a different light, that is WAY better than just breaking out the Ban Hamster because you can.

I think this thread has helped clear up a lot, so hopefully moving forward we will have more interesting weapons, builds and testing threads and less battling over verbage.

JD
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:26 PM   #44
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Your not offending anyone, you are just making a lot folks scratch their head and ask "What is this guy's motive here? Bank Robbery? Armored Car? Timothy McVeigh Two?"

Not a lot of people just stop by and start asking about defeating bullet proof vests. Since they are rare in civilian life anyways, the thought is that the "want" to defeat one, is paramount to some plan forming in the back of one's mind to HAVE to defeat one. You know.

This forum will discuss anything, even the ludicrous, but it just takes time for people to get a read on the poster. If one of the senior members of a year or two was asking the same thing, it would have garnered similar responses, but at least the folks would know where that person was coming from.

Okay, so you want to defeat body armor ( assume CLASS II or so in the civilian world ) in the event you have to do it.

Options:

AP rounds - expensive, not readily available, rough on your weapon if you feed them a heavy diet, over penetration a problem.

Rifle caliber rounds. See the North Hollywood Shootout for the results of this test. Rifle rounds win HANDS DOWN against standard vest protection.

Shot placement. Most vests don't come with standard side, under the arm, arms themselves, groin, neck or below the waist protection.

Hit someone with a shotgun at close range that is wearing a vest and you are going to, at THE VERY least, give them a spin like a top which will allow you to see that they didn't drop like a rock. Alter aim and take out their legs. Equation solved.

It's all about threat assessment and what you do, not having the biggest, baddest, elephant gun at your side at the time of the encounter.

Shoot a guy in the chest who is wearing a vest with a .40 S&W or a 9mm or a .45ACP. The rounds probably are not going to go through the vest, but the trauma due to impact will and that will give you, the shooter, an idea of how much damage you did. If the guy goes ass over teakettle and is still rolling around, assuming a life or death situation scramble, alter aim and shoot until the threat has been nullified.

Perhaps some reading might help. Check out Combat Focus by Rob Pincus. It's a great book and will teach you quite a bit about these types of mental scenarios that you have rolling.

JD
So you're saying something like a 450 or 458 would go through body armor?
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:30 PM   #45
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So you're saying something like a 450 or 458 would go through body armor?
Given the average shooting distance for street to street, urban style combat? Doubtful. Unless you are lucky enough to put three rounds in the exact same trauma pad or you catch a seam between nylon and plates.

But.... it will create enough internal shock to significantly change that person's whole view on aggression at that point. The second and third rounds of a standard three-round type burst will most likely put your average 220lb attacker on their collective ass while you decide what you want to do next.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:50 PM   #46
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will standard FMJ 5.56 and 7.62 even do it? because doesn't the military have special stuff for the job
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:24 PM   #47
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Okay. Obviously this one question isn't going anywhere until you get an answer directly to this one highly questionable item.

There is no such thing as "bullet proof". Nothing is bullet proof. What you have are various levels of bullet resistance.

If you have a vest rated at "X", you need a round capable of delivering "Y" to get through it.

The smaller the round, the faster it is going, the greater the chances you have of penetrating a resisant surface.

Take the side from a cardboard shipping box. Take a can of peas and try to push it through. Hell, drop it from 10 feet and see if it will go through. Now try a pencil shot from a simple rubber band. See the difference?

Surface area of projectile versus dissipated energy against target.

So yes, a 5.56 bullet will penetrate a vest rated at II or III or even III-A. Those vests are rated for handgun rounds.

Now, this thread has gone officially as far as it's going to go.

If you want to know about ballistics versus material targets than you need to do some reading on that subject material and the best place to start is be looking at people that make the vests that you are currently interested in shooting through.

Dragon Skin

Interceptor

ProMAX

Armorsmith

JD
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