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-   -   Barrel Length Question (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f20/barrel-length-question-46224/)

Schmeekey 08-04-2011 01:50 AM

Barrel Length Question
 
If a carbine gas system can accommodate a 10.5 inch barrel why is it that the shortest a mid-length can accommodate is a 14.5?

JonM 08-04-2011 01:59 AM

because 14.5 is about midway tween 10 and 20 hence the label mid length. carbine length wasnt meant for a 16inch barrel its meant for an actual M4 military barrel which is 14.5 inches the extra length 4.5 at the end is for a bayonet.

16 inch barrels would perform better with a midlength giving a smoother gas impulse and longer sight radius.

Schmeekey 08-04-2011 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonM (Post 555566)
because 14.5 is about midway tween 10 and 20 hence the label mid length. carbine length wasnt meant for a 16inch barrel its meant for an actual M4 military barrel which is 14.5 inches the extra length 4.5 at the end is for a bayonet.

16 inch barrels would perform better with a midlength giving a smoother gas impulse and longer sight radius.

Thanks for the answer, but that wasn't really what I was asking. I was wondering why a carbine length can semi reliably run a barrel that ends one inch away from the gas block. By that logic, you would think that a middy could do the same. But as I have been told, this is not possible and that the shortest you can have is 14.5. I am simply wondering why you can't use a 12.5" barrel for example. I hope this clarified my question.

Gatoragn 08-04-2011 03:24 AM

I don't know if this is relevant to your question or not.

According to the owner of my favorite LGS, the shortest legal rifle barrel for civilian use is 16 inches. 14.5 inch barrels accomplish this by having a muzzle device (flash hider, brake) pinned or welded to meet the 16 inch minimum.

To be a legal rifle, a 12.5 inch barrel would need a 3.5+ inch muzzle device.

TekGreg 08-04-2011 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmeekey (Post 555609)
Thanks for the answer, but that wasn't really what I was asking. I was wondering why a carbine length can semi reliably run a barrel that ends one inch away from the gas block. By that logic, you would think that a middy could do the same. But as I have been told, this is not possible and that the shortest you can have is 14.5. I am simply wondering why you can't use a 12.5" barrel for example. I hope this clarified my question.

Schmeekey, even though the short barrel terminates one inch from the gas block, the distance the gas has to travel back in the gas system is much less in the short barrel system. As you lengthen the barrel AND the gas tube, the bullet must remain in the barrel longer past the gas block to pressurize the longer tube to reliably cycle the gas system. That extra couple of inches allows time for the gas to cycle back down the longer tube and do all that it needs to do! :cool: I know that manufacturers test different lengths and sometimes cannot get certain lengths to function because of recoil/gas pulse problems based on length, tube size, gas block, etc. Gas systems are a constant compromise and balancing act, and that is probably why you are not seeing the "reasonableness" of this build. You may be able to change the tube and/or the block and get a better result from a custom build.

I hope that helped!

JonM 08-04-2011 04:04 AM

the closer the port is to the chamber the higher the gas pressure thats why carbine ports are smaller than rifle 20" ports. takes less gas to operate the carbine tubes due to the increased pressure

Schmeekey 08-04-2011 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekGreg (Post 555632)
Schmeekey, even though the short barrel terminates one inch from the gas block, the distance the gas has to travel back in the gas system is much less in the short barrel system. As you lengthen the barrel AND the gas tube, the bullet must remain in the barrel longer past the gas block to pressurize the longer tube to reliably cycle the gas system. That extra couple of inches allows time for the gas to cycle back down the longer tube and do all that it needs to do! :cool: I know that manufacturers test different lengths and sometimes cannot get certain lengths to function because of recoil/gas pulse problems based on length, tube size, gas block, etc. Gas systems are a constant compromise and balancing act, and that is probably why you are not seeing the "reasonableness" of this build. You may be able to change the tube and/or the block and get a better result from a custom build.

I hope that helped!

Thanks! this totally answered my question. I was just curious to why no one had made a shorty mid-length. Thanks for such a detailed answer.

TekGreg 08-04-2011 03:13 PM

An even better response
 
Schmeekey, I did some more research and found out some more information for you.

As the bullet is fired, the brass casing is under extremely high pressure and is locked into the chamber. As you know, when the bullet passes the gas port, escaping gasses go up into the gas tube and back toward the bolt and bolt carrier, forcing them to unlock and move back to cycle the action. However, if the bullet is still in the barrel when the bolt tries to unlock because there is a lot of barrel length it still has to travel before it exits, then the case still has too much pressure to release the chamber and the gun may not cycle. The opposite is also a problem when the barrel is very short. If the bullet exits the barrel too soon after passing the gas port, then you have too little dwell time and insufficient gas going down the tube back into the bolt and bolt carrier (since more more gasses end up escaping out of the end of the barrel). This also causes malfunctions. Again, this can be adjusted in a number of ways, size of gas port, size of gas tube, position of gas block, length of tube, etc.

This is the best answer I could get for you at the moment. Stay tuned for further updates if I come up with something even more detailed - I may call Colt and talk to their gas specialist. :eek: :cool:

Schmeekey 08-04-2011 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekGreg (Post 555874)
Schmeekey, I did some more research and found out some more information for you.

As the bullet is fired, the brass casing is under extremely high pressure and is locked into the chamber. As you know, when the bullet passes the gas port, escaping gasses go up into the gas tube and back toward the bolt and bolt carrier, forcing them to unlock and move back to cycle the action. However, if the bullet is still in the barrel when the bolt tries to unlock because there is a lot of barrel length it still has to travel before it exits, then the case still has too much pressure to release the chamber and the gun may not cycle. The opposite is also a problem when the barrel is very short. If the bullet exits the barrel too soon after passing the gas port, then you have too little dwell time and insufficient gas going down the tube back into the bolt and bolt carrier (since more more gasses end up escaping out of the end of the barrel). This also causes malfunctions. Again, this can be adjusted in a number of ways, size of gas port, size of gas tube, position of gas block, length of tube, etc.

This is the best answer I could get for you at the moment. Stay tuned for further updates if I come up with something even more detailed - I may call Colt and talk to their gas specialist. :eek: :cool:

Thank you again for putting in time to answer my question.

Quentin 08-04-2011 10:53 PM

Great answers, TekGreg!

Just repeating some of the points, you probably can get a midlength gas system to work with a barrel shorter than 14.5" but it would take a lot of tuning to make it reliable with various ammo, increasing the gas port and playing with the buffer weight and spring, maybe even a light weight bolt carrier. Even in a 14.5" sometimes it's hard to get Wolf and other light powered ammo to be reliable with midlength gas.

It's just not worth it so you see the carbine length gas in shorter barrels.


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