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Old 04-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #21
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StainlessSteel215,

You can use whatever lube you want, but remember the following:

1. Choose a lube that has a high burn temperature or deal with the burnt off lube by replacing it with more lube. This is my solution. I live in an area of Texas that has high humidity, salt in the air, and little in the way of dust or sand. For me, CLP works. This is one of the lubricants that the military uses and so long as you keep your bolt and carrier rails lubed, you shouldn't have any problems unless you're in a high dust/grit/sand environment or you drop your AR in mud/sand/water. If you do, more lube and perhaps a cleaning will be necessary. If you keep your AR buttoned up (barrel cap, ejection port cover, and magazine well), it limits intrusion of foreign debris but does not prevent it. High temperature greases stay put, don't attract much in the way of dust/grit/sand, and don't run off or burn off nearly as easily as light, low viscosity oils like CLP.

If I will shoot 200 rounds or less in a range session (target shooting) in normal versus rapid fire (light training or drills), CLP works just fine. I've never had a problem with the bolt or carrier, but that's because I lube it just before I go to the range and I take a small bottle with me. If I didn't remember to take a bottle of lube with me, I would need it. Remember that. If you store your AR for about a week or longer, CLP runs off or evaporates. Again, not much of an issue if you remember to lube your AR before you shoot it.

2. Doesn't attract dust/grit/sand. There are certain types of film forming lubricants, like XF-7, that don't attract too much in the way of foreign debris from a dirty environment. My experience with dry lubricants is somewhat limited, but I've used dry lubricants and not had any problems, either.

If you know you're gonna get your gun wet or dirty, make sure you have a rag (I like old cotton handkerchiefs), extra lube, and accessories to clean optics (like a lens pen) if you run optics. Again, keep your carbine buttoned up to the extent possible; It helps.

Whomever thinks that precision machines run better without lube when dirty versus lubed when dirty needs to be smacked upside the head really hard.

There is such a thing as excessive lubrication and I don't recommend excessive lubrication, but keep the rails and bolt lubed. Look at where the finish wears off the parts. Those are the areas that need lube. Would you ever run your car without oil? It has precision parts in close contact with each other directing the force of an explosion. It needs lubrication. Now, why would you ever run your AR without oil? It has precision parts in close contact with each other directing the force of an explosion. See a pattern there? Umm, yeah, it needs lubrication too.

3. Synthetics with the right properties can be better than petroleum products. Petroleum products generally attract dust/sand/grit, burn off, and run off/evaporate/gum up. That doesn't mean petroleum products don't work. CLP works just fine if you use it properly.

Lastly, try not to get too wrapped around the axle about the lube thing. If all you have is motor oil or wheel bearing grease, you have what you need to lube an AR. Sure, CLP, SLIP2000, XF-7, and plastilube are in military use and have gold stars next to their names, but any synthetic motor oil or high temp grease is gonna work.

To lube or not to lube, it's not even a question - LUBE!

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Old 04-09-2013, 05:18 PM   #22
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Regarding the lugs shearing within a mag or two, this is why military bolts are stress relieved, heat treated, and inspected for fractures. My guess would be stress fractures during the machining process, improper or no stress relief after machining, and/or improper heat treatment. Whether the bolt was 8620, 9310, or Carpenter 158 really makes no difference without proper quality control during machining, stress relieving, and heat treating.

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Old 04-09-2013, 05:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteel215 View Post
Wheeeew, I have a lot to absorb and research as i only understood about half of that....but thanks

I just want a simple yet trusted brand for a backup bolt....and I'm pretty sure my complete DPMS is non mil spec. Does that really matter when it comes to the bolt?
Sorry that was a ear full and absorbing that I know doesnt make alot of sense , I say shoot what you have until it breaks , #1 it may never break or fail , #2 if it does replace it , That is what is so great about the black rifle , very universal , fairly inexpensive to maintain , and parts are out there every where ," well usually" . Never hurts to have extra stuff laying around , I keep lots of pins, detents, springs, trigger parts pins, BCG parts ,springs, firing pins, extractors, ejectors, bolts and Lots of gas rings ,. Im a bit like Jon I dont have any complete BCGs laying around , I found if I do this I end up with another rifle in the safe that I dont need
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:58 PM   #24
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What is your take on this...I have a Del Ton Sport, (New) the BCG is staked and chrome lined (Phosphated 8620 Steel) and the bolt is labled HPT/MPI (Also carpenter 158 steel - Heat Treated and Plated). Would I benefit from upgrading the BCG assy to lets say a PSA or similar and then keep the Del Ton assy as a back up? Would that make the rifle any more "durable" or would that just be wasting $?

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteel215 View Post
Wheeeew, I have a lot to absorb and research as i only understood about half of that....but thanks

I just want a simple yet trusted brand for a backup bolt....and I'm pretty sure my complete DPMS is non mil spec. Does that really matter when it comes to the bolt?
The bolt is the most important part. What i WOULD do is get a bcm bcg and use your current bcg as backup. The pieces that wear out like the gas key can be replaced the bolt itself is the heart of any gun.

If you want a decent backup get a rra bcg. I run one of those in my national match rifle. Its not going to get run hard like my carbine so it doesnt need the extra toughness but its still going to last a long time.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:57 PM   #26
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Thanks Jon....once more can you describe "bcm" and "rra" bolt carrier groups? Is this a certain make.....can you elaborate?

Mucho appreciated everyone

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Old 04-09-2013, 08:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteel215 View Post
Thanks Jon....once more can you describe "bcm" and "rra" bolt carrier groups? Is this a certain make.....can you elaborate?

Mucho appreciated everyone
Bravo Company Manufacturing & Rock River Arms
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:01 PM   #28
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you guys RAWK, thanks

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Old 04-09-2013, 10:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawjr74 View Post
What is your take on this...I have a Del Ton Sport, (New) the BCG is staked and chrome lined (Phosphated 8620 Steel) and the bolt is labled HPT/MPI (Also carpenter 158 steel - Heat Treated and Plated). Would I benefit from upgrading the BCG assy to lets say a PSA or similar and then keep the Del Ton assy as a back up? Would that make the rifle any more "durable" or would that just be wasting $?
IF the bolt was properly machined, IF the stress relieving after the machining operations was performed correctly, and IF the heat treatment process was performed correctly, you really shouldn't have a problem with your bolt. Those are all big "if's", but if you know that your bolt and carrier function properly and you don't see any signs of abnormal wear or stress fractures in the bolt, why fret over who made the bolt? IF the bolt was properly manufactured to military specifications, then it really doesn't matter who made it.

Treat your bolt as a consumable part and purchase a spare or spares. How many rounds do you have on the bolt? What style of shooting do you typically do? Do you perform a lot of mag dumps or do you do precision target shooting? How many rounds do you typically shoot per month? You can run your bolt until it breaks like the military does or you can buy spares and adhere to a maintenance schedule. Cost is relative. I guarantee the cost of ammunition exceeds the cost of a new bolt whereupon you've shot enough rounds through the gun to wear the bolt out. After spending thousands of dollars on ammo, who cares about a hundred bucks or less for a new bolt?

HPT (High Pressure Test) only ensures that the bolt has safely withstood one overpressure cartridge.

MPI, performed after HPT, only ensures that after the machining process and proof shot were completed that no fractures were found in the steel.

MPI is pretty meaningless after a few rounds are fired through the gun. Anything can happen with the steel at that point, although the overwhelming majority of evidence indicates that if a properly manufactured bolt passes HPT/MPI testing you won't have too many problems over the design life span of the bolt.

Having a spare bolt and firing pin is prudent, at a minimum, and having a complete drop in replacement (bolt, carrier, firing pin, buffer spring) is desirable.

If you're really concerned about this stuff, go read Mil-C-70599A (assuming you have a M4 pattern carbine).

Colt and FNH make "mil-spec" (Mil-C-70599A) compliant AR-15 carbines. Everyone else deviates slightly from the aforementioned specification. Some of the deviations from the specification are meaningless. Some deviations would even improve the reliability and longevity of the components. Some deviations are designed to reduce cost. Sometimes cost cutting measures are acceptable and some are inadvisable. Without knowing exactly what a particular manufacturer does, how would you know the difference? I have watched High Standard Manufacturing produce AR's. They make AR's for the Navy. The AR's are not strictly mil-spec, but critical components like the bolt are. The Navy seems to prefer their AR's over Colt's. Cause for concern that Colt can't produce a quality AR? Hardly. There's a flavor of AR for everyone, even AK guys.

Here's what I worry about:

1. Does my AR have lube on it and have I lubed it recently?

2. Do I have a rag or patches, lube, and cleaning kit with me?

3. Are my mags functioning properly and do I have spares?

4. Does my optic function properly, is it clean, and do I have a lens pen, spare battery, and adjustment tool (coin) for the optic?

5. Does my white light work, is the lens clean, and do I have spare batteries for it?

That's what concerns me, not whether or not I have the best barrel/bolt/bolt carrier/buffer spring or any other particular part. If I put a check in the block next to each of those items, I'm good to go.

Worrying about bolt steel is a waste of time. I buy spare parts because despite the best efforts of men and machines to produce quality parts for my favorite carbine, things will go wrong and parts will fail.

Buy spares, take your AR life support equipment with you wherever you take your carbine, shoot stuff, smile, and be happy.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:07 AM   #30
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Im curious as to who's Bolt that is to see if I m right .
I'm guessing Stoner.
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