Army Killed New Carbine Because It Wasn’t Twice As Reliable As Current M4 - Page 5
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:47 PM   #41
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My thoughts on the piston AR issue are that if you have a 20 inch barrel, which is comparable to the M16, the advantages of the piston are less evident, and it normally is less cost effective to not go with the DI. Where the piston shines the most are the shorter barrels. Every so often I read or hear about the changeover from M16's to M4's, but I haven't seen any significant movement yet in that direction. As far as the bullpups go, there are times where they can be advantageous, but those points are far between.

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Old 06-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
So what would be wrong with a bullpup AR? With all due respect,

many countries are progressing towards the bullpup style for

it's many inherent design advantages.
I do not see the US going bulpup until we see one with a decent trigger.

I've extensively fired the FN 2000, PS 90, the old Bushmaster M17, and dry fired the British SA 80.

All of them make the old Kel Tek P11 trigger feel crisp.

Even Israels new Tavor sports an 11 LB 8 oz trigger?

Standard conventions may change but I don't see US Brass accepting this regardles of "inherent accuracy" due to the importance our Military puts on "practical accuracy".

The "other" Countries who've gone this route have forces much smaller than ours, limiting the supply chain/parts impact and...

...add to these concerns the extreme difference in balance and handling characteristics and going Bul Pup is a tough sell for the US Military.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:52 AM   #43
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Here's more on the story. It adds Troy and LMT to the finalists but doesn't specify the models or if they're piston operated. No doubt there's more to come.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/06/14/army-gun-makers-didnt-meet-reliability-standard.html?comp=700001075741&rank=6

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:29 AM   #44
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It's to heavy to carry 308 rounds.180 rounds of 556 is heavy. The Modern solider needs to be light an move quickly
When did the combat load drop to 180 rounds? In my day it was 7 mags, 210 rounds of 5.56, 4 Frags, 2 Smokes... and whatever other ordinance may be deemed necessary for the mission.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:36 AM   #45
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So what would be wrong with a bullpup AR? With all due respect,

many countries are progressing towards the bullpup style for

it's many inherent design advantages.
Bushmaster did... They called it the M17S... and it's trigger sucked as bad as every other Bull Pup I've played with.

Tack
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:51 AM   #46
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I was wondering the same thing, Tack. Those of us who've carried the M16/M4 deserve better treatment than that.
Agreed Quentin... However, I've slapped around far too many deserving souls, some of them Mod's, here at FTF... to whine about it when I happen to type 18" instead of 20".

It's all good... and if correcting Tack made someone's day... I'm happy for them!
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:38 AM   #47
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IDK. I don't like it how every attempt to replace the 50 year old weapons platform we have is doomed to fail. Even USSOCOM couldn't get SCAR-Ls to replace their M4s, M16s, CQBRs, and SPRs (though apparently, the SCAR-H is pretty popular). I also don't like how all of the replacement candidates are so similar to the AR-15 platform, they all fired the same round, they all still use the old STANAG mags. Hell, three of them were basically the same damn gun, but using pistons instead of direct impingement.

Why can't we have a rifle competition were we can actually learn something? Actually have some variations in barrel, trigger, and magwell configurations, and a few different calibers. Off the top of my head, here's what we pit against each other.

*A normal M4A1
*A normal M16A4
*A piston-driven AR, something like an HK416, with both 14.5 and 20 inch barrels
*both a 16 and 20 inch barreled SCAR-L
*a 3rd standard 5.56 rifle
*A bullpup 5.56 rifle
*A bullpup 6.5 Grendel rifle
*A standard 6.5 Grendel rifle
*both bullpup and standard rifles chambered for a 3rd round (6.8 SPC, 7.62x51, doesn't matter)
*Hell, maybe even dig up some old XM8s

And actually go beyond reliability tests too. Test for accuracy, lethality, ease of use, crap like that.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:47 AM   #48
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Simple Logistics and Cost.

Note: The Government dictates many reaquirements. Things like caliber, max weight, effective range, and supply chain concerns like magazines are stipulated because a completely different rifle that fired a different round, used different mags, and rendered current stocks of replacement parts useless would increase the cost 10 or 20 fold.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotFudge View Post
IDK. I don't like it how every attempt to replace the 50 year old weapons platform we have is doomed to fail. Even USSOCOM couldn't get SCAR-Ls to replace their M4s, M16s, CQBRs, and SPRs (though apparently, the SCAR-H is pretty popular). I also don't like how all of the replacement candidates are so similar to the AR-15 platform, they all fired the same round, they all still use the old STANAG mags. Hell, three of them were basically the same damn gun, but using pistons instead of direct impingement.

Why can't we have a rifle competition were we can actually learn something? Actually have some variations in barrel, trigger, and magwell configurations, and a few different calibers. Off the top of my head, here's what we pit against each other.

*A normal M4A1
*A normal M16A4
*A piston-driven AR, something like an HK416, with both 14.5 and 20 inch barrels
*both a 16 and 20 inch barreled SCAR-L
*a 3rd standard 5.56 rifle
*A bullpup 5.56 rifle
*A bullpup 6.5 Grendel rifle
*A standard 6.5 Grendel rifle
*both bullpup and standard rifles chambered for a 3rd round (6.8 SPC, 7.62x51, doesn't matter)
*Hell, maybe even dig up some old XM8s

And actually go beyond reliability tests too. Test for accuracy, lethality, ease of use, crap like that.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:14 AM   #49
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When I served in the USMC I was never confident in the M16A1 rifle. I felt and I still feel that the 5.56 x 45 cartridge is a glorified 22 wmr. I was used to shooting a 270 when I enlisted. I had no experience with the 223 until boot camp. When I qualified in boot camp was happy it was peacetime and I prayed I would never have to carry the M16 into combat. The lord answered my prayers. The US never had any military conflicts while I was enlisted. Less than 90 days after I got home the Iran hostage crisis happened. I prayed for my brothers every day. I still pray for every american in harms way that is serving our country in any capacity.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:27 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1

When did the combat load drop to 180 rounds? In my day it was 7 mags, 210 rounds of 5.56, 4 Frags, 2 Smokes... and whatever other ordinance may be deemed necessary for the mission.

Tack
I'm not sure when it dropped but I'd rather have 7mags myself
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