Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion > AR-15 Discussion > Army Killed New Carbine Because It Wasn’t Twice As Reliable As Current M4

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2013, 11:33 PM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Quentin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,470
Liked 944 Times on 669 Posts
Likes Given: 933

Default Army Killed New Carbine Because It Wasn’t Twice As Reliable As Current M4

Looks like the M4 is here to stay for the foreseeable future. I think overall it was a wise decision.

Quote:
The Army has half a million M4 carbines, the lightweight version of the Vietnam-vintage M16. So if the service was going to invest in a replacement, it wanted a “leap ahead” that would, among other things, cut in half the number of times the weapon jammed – a criterion the Army has not made clear until today. None of the eight designs offered for the Individual Carbine competition met that standard, Army officials said, so the service is going to stick with the M4 indefinitely.

That, in a nutshell, is the word from a half-dozen Army experts and officials at a hastily convened press conference to explain the service’s decision to, for all practical purposes, kill off the $1.8 billion Individual Carbine program...

The final six Individual (Improved) Carbine program contenders all were piston designs:

FN FNAC (SCAR)
Heckler & Koch HK416A5
Remington ACR
Adcor Defense BEAR Elite
Beretta ARX-160
Colt Enhanced M4


http://breakingdefense.com/2013/06/14/army-killed-new-carbine-because-it-wasnt-twice-as-good-as-current-m4/?test=latestnews
.
__________________

______
The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together. You'll remember the quality of a gun long after you forget how much you paid for it.
________________________________________
US Army 1966-69, VFW Life Member, Retired Geek


Last edited by Quentin; 06-15-2013 at 10:16 PM.
Quentin is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 06-15-2013, 01:45 PM   #2
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 41
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

That was a great read. Thanks for sharing.

__________________
MrPEZO is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 02:11 PM   #3
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The green, green grass of home.
Posts: 448
Liked 135 Times on 109 Posts
Likes Given: 38

Default

Yes Siree, good article. M855A1? Coburn's case against the M4? The (un)reliability of the M4!?

Knowing the Army acquisition process and history, they made a decision and found a way out of what Congress foisted upon them...

I wonder if we'll ever know who really won, who lost, why and how. Probably after our lifetimes in a FOIA request when the book is written about the real end of the XM8 program. THAT'll be interesting reading and I'm sorry I'll miss it...

__________________
MattShlock is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 02:21 PM   #4
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Overkill0084's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Weber County, Utah
Posts: 4,116
Liked 2579 Times on 1291 Posts
Likes Given: 246

Default

Quote:
The problem is that, despite five years of back and forth between government and industry, the gunmakers apparently still did not have a clear idea of what the Army actually wanted. “If the Army wants something really new and different, you’ve got to get real specific real soon in that process,” said Allen Youngman, the retired Army two-star who heads the Defense Small Arms Advisory Council, a trade group. Instead, industry sources say, the formal solicitation looked like the Army wanted a modestly improved M4A1.
This tells me that they weren't serious about the issue to start with.

Quote:
That said, the current M4A1 carbine doesn’t meet the standard of 3,592 “mean rounds before stoppage” (MRBS), either.
3592 rds? I'd really love to know how they arrived at that number. For some reason I get the feeling it was one of those "It came to me in a dream" kind of standards. Maybe they pulled it off an odometer?
__________________
Cheers,
Greg
USAF Retired
NRA Life Member

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
Milton Friedman
Overkill0084 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 02:25 PM   #5
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Axxe55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Texas, Texas!
Posts: 27,295
Liked 19961 Times on 11347 Posts
Likes Given: 50323

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
This tells me that they weren't serious about the issue to start with.

3592 rds? I'd really love to know how they arrived at that number. For some reason I get the feeling it was one of those "It came to me in a dream" kind of standards. Maybe they pulled it off an odometer?
yes, very odd number. 3592 divided by 30 round mags only equals 119.733 mags. why not an even 120 mags?
__________________
Coming From The Village Of The Damned.
Resist All Tyranny And Oppression.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.
Axxe55 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 03:38 PM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
AgentTikki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: City of Lost Angels, Kommifornia
Posts: 3,444
Liked 335 Times on 264 Posts
Likes Given: 51

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
yes, very odd number. 3592 divided by 30 round mags only equals 119.733 mags. why not an even 120 mags?
They did say that they required the gun fire ON AVERAGE 3592 without a stoppage. I'm guessing they mean 120 mags.
__________________
Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.
Know what you know, Know what you don't know. -Paul Pedzolt
"Jack of all trades, master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one" -Mynshul
AgentTikki is offline  
axxe55 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 04:16 PM   #7
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tackleberry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver,WA
Posts: 5,814
Liked 4555 Times on 2203 Posts
Likes Given: 1366

Default

Sounds like Congress trying to waste money and the Army saying "no thanks."

As an Infantry Vet I was never happy with the 5.56 MM but... From an 18" M16A2 I had every confidence that would do it's job and I had no reservations about my ability to hit targets consistently out to 600 meters.

I also had no problems with malfunctions in the A2 Configuration.

All us DI AR owners know our shorter mid length systems do experience far more fouling that the older full length... and we also know that the current 14.5" M4 lacks the range for effective engagements at distances found in Afghanistan... Which is why be broke the old M14's out of storage for use as Designated Marksman Rifles.

All that said, I agree with Generals. If it's not twice as good, why waste money on a new toy?

Tack

__________________
It is not the Citizens duty to show loyalty to the Government... it IS the Governments duty to show loyalty to the Citizen
Tackleberry1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 08:37 PM   #8
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Quentin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,470
Liked 944 Times on 669 Posts
Likes Given: 933

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
... 3592 rds? I'd really love to know how they arrived at that number. For some reason I get the feeling it was one of those "It came to me in a dream" kind of standards. Maybe they pulled it off an odometer?

"... During testing in 2010, M4A1s loaded with the M855A1 round fired, on average, 1,691 times before jamming.

So the 3,591 mean rounds between stoppage the Army wanted for the Individual Carbine was 112 percent better than what the M4A1 can currently manage. That would definitely be a “leap ahead” in reliability. How far short of that standard each competitor fell is proprietary information the Army could not disclose. But the service argues that anything less than a 112 percent improvement wouldn’t justify the huge investment required to issue everyone new guns..."




Without being there it's hard to say exactly what they did but simple math comes close.

1691 + 1691 X 112% rounds to 3585 which is roughly 112% "better than what the M4A1 can currently manage"

To get 3591 they used something like 112.36%
__________________

______
The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together. You'll remember the quality of a gun long after you forget how much you paid for it.
________________________________________
US Army 1966-69, VFW Life Member, Retired Geek


Last edited by Quentin; 06-15-2013 at 08:45 PM.
Quentin is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 08:50 PM   #9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pasco Cty.FL
Posts: 6,510
Liked 2442 Times on 1391 Posts
Likes Given: 1910

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattShlock View Post
I wonder if we'll ever know who really won, who lost, why and how. Probably after our lifetimes in a FOIA request when the book is written about the real end of the XM8 program. THAT'll be interesting reading and I'm sorry I'll miss it...

Hell, it would be fun to know who and what was in the game...
__________________
therewolf is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #10
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Copeman60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 223
Liked 18 Times on 14 Posts

Default

The m16 is the greatest rifle platform ever an it may not be replace for a long time!! Thank you mr. stoner!!!

__________________
Copeman60 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Daddy wasn't there opsec Legal and Activism 2 02-16-2013 04:44 PM
Cambridge OH: it wasn't us usmc1978 Gun Shows 0 12-27-2012 11:08 PM
Wasn't sure where to put this,, The home range is done! truevil1313 DIY Projects 9 08-24-2012 06:18 PM
Current project: M44 Nagant Carbine Melium DIY Projects 20 08-01-2011 07:29 AM
Whatever did this, glad it wasn't me ALSGUN Revolver Handguns 13 08-03-2010 03:52 AM



Newest Threads