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-   -   ar15 gas system (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f20/ar15-gas-system-28511/)

stuntman19832000 06-19-2010 07:10 AM

ar15 gas system
 
First of all I search for this question and didn't find it, so don't get pissed if it's already here lol. which is better gas piston or direct impingement on an ar15?

moshpit 06-19-2010 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuntman19832000 (Post 302599)
First of all I search for this question and didn't find it, so don't get pissed if it's already here lol. which is better gas piston or direct impingement on an ar15?

LOL, this is an ongoing debate and really boils down to neither being superior, both have distinct advantages. Generally, a DI rifle will be a little to a lot lighter then the same rifle with a piston system. A piston rifle runs a lot cleaner and uses less lube, but also adds a mechanical failure point that a DI rifle doesn't have to worry about. A DI rifle can clog up with smoot. A piston rifle will not.

I prefer a DI rifle for the weight and the fact that I clean religiously anyway. Also, I can work on a DI system because of it's simplicity, while piston systems are not standardized and one manufacturers piston may differ from the next's, but both manufacturers use the exact same length and shape gas tube for their DI carbines.

Quentin 06-19-2010 02:40 PM

Mosh is dead on as usual and the reasons he listed are why I also went with a DI system. And I don't mind cleaning a firearm after a day at the range either, that's just what you do. Most of what you hear about piston ARs is hype and we're bombarded with it in magazines and gun forums. Sure there are some advantages but it gets old repeatedly hearing you must upgrade to have a reliable AR.

Of course choose the one you want but remember that there are lots of competing piston designs being tried out on ARs at present. Ten years from now many will have failed and thus be orphans. Proprietary parts will only be available from the manufacturer and in time parts for the designs that failed will dry up. This won't happen with a DI rifle for the foreseeable future, parts are available from dozens of sources and are normally interchangeable between all major brands.

hillbilly68 06-19-2010 04:50 PM

Here is a dissenting opinion (based in fact and on experience). The conditions that most civilian AR style DI rifles (in a lot of the terrain/environment in the U.S.) are exposed to do NOT require excessive cleaning to keep functioning. Unless you expose the chamber/ BCG directly to a lot of loose dirt or sand driven into it all one has to do is keep it wet with good quality lube (Slip 2000, Mobil 1, whatever). A good quality AR can go thousands of rounds without cleaning. It will not run without lubrication.
Everyone is all about the piston guns because there has been a campaign (started with the HK 416) to get us to think all our "old" gas guns are horrible and require cleaning between each magazine change. B.S. Yes a piston gun keeps the BCG cool and clean, but it simply moves the heat and carbon elsewhere. The same heat and carbon have to go somewhere, guess where? Not out the barrel I assure you.
Nothing is perfect, gotta weigh the choices (as you have done).

hillbilly68 06-19-2010 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quentin (Post 302668)
.....
Of course choose the one you want but remember that there are lots of competing piston designs being tried out on ARs at present. Ten years from now many will have failed and thus be orphans. Proprietary parts will only be available from the manufacturer and in time parts for the designs that failed will dry up. This won't happen with a DI rifle for the foreseeable future, parts are available from dozens of sources and are normally interchangeable between all major brands.

And this ^^^ Spot on IMO.

moshpit 06-19-2010 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbilly68 (Post 302719)
Here is a dissenting opinion (based in fact and on experience). The conditions that most civilian AR style DI rifles (in a lot of the terrain/environment in the U.S.) are exposed to do NOT require excessive cleaning to keep functioning. Unless you expose the chamber/ BCG directly to a lot of loose dirt or sand driven into it all one has to do is keep it wet with good quality lube (Slip 2000, Mobil 1, whatever). A good quality AR can go thousands of rounds without cleaning. It will not run without lubrication.
Everyone is all about the piston guns because there has been a campaign (started with the HK 416) to get us to think all our "old" gas guns are horrible and require cleaning between each magazine change. B.S. Yes a piston gun keeps the BCG cool and clean, but it simply moves the heat and carbon elsewhere. The same heat and carbon have to go somewhere, guess where? Not out the barrel I assure you.
Nothing is perfect, gotta weigh the choices (as you have done).

I'm honestly not sure you've dissented with anybody here, unless your referring to dissenting against opinions in previous or other threads. So far, both Quentin and I pretty much agreed with what you said except you went more into how a DI system can survive the mess just fine, providing some nice extra detail.

But I'm at a loss how your dissenting against anything Quentin or I said? We both prefer DI systems. And for the record, hillbilly, while you may have more experience with CIVILIAN ARs, I promise you don't have more time or experience on the M16 then I do, unless you started BEFORE 1984. Consistently shot 39 for 40 with only fast freddie EVER escaping me. Damn that Fast Freddie!

hillbilly68 06-19-2010 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moshpit (Post 302730)
.... hillbilly, while you may have more experience with CIVILIAN ARs, I promise you don't have more time or experience on the M16 then I do, unless you started BEFORE 1984.....

Engage your brain before you engage your mouth next time. While I agree with you that I do have more experience with civilian ARs than you, I would argue that I have just a little more with the M16/M4 series since that is what I do for a living...still today. I have more time behind the gun than you could dream of, around the world and bacck again. Comments like yours are one of the reasons Im getting tired of being on forums altogether. Sit back and you might learn something.

[QUOTE=moshpit;302730]...clean religiously anyway[QUOTE=moshpit;302730]

That is the one. Having to be "cleaned religiously" is not necessary (taking into account the environmental factors described).

moshpit 06-19-2010 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbilly68 (Post 302877)
Engage your brain before you engage your mouth next time. While I agree with you that I do have more experience with civilian ARs than you, I would argue that I have just a little more with the M16/M4 series since that is what I do for a living...still today. I have more time behind the gun than you could dream of, around the world and bacck again. Comments like yours are one of the reasons Im getting tired of being on forums altogether. Sit back and you might learn something.

The fact that you make such broad assumptions is what's making comments like "engage your brain" look pretty hypocritical. Pot meet kettle? If you didn't get your start before the mid-80's with M16's, then no, you're full of it. Carbon and crap. Cleaning religiously is what the service taught me to do and I see no need based on the word of a hillbilly to change that.

hillbilly68 06-20-2010 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moshpit (Post 302881)
The fact that you make such broad assumptions is what's making comments like "engage your brain" look pretty hypocritical. Pot meet kettle? If you didn't get your start before the mid-80's with M16's, then no, you're full of it. Carbon and crap. Cleaning religiously is what the service taught me to do and I see no need based on the word of a hillbilly to change that.

I did enlist in the Army under Reagan in the mid 80s, again you speak from a position of ignorance. I would guess you pulled a short hitch and got (thrown?) out. Are you still in the service? If so, I retract my statement. But I know you are not. My peers (which you would never have been anyway) would speak differently. Yeah I grew up in the "clean it until it squeaks" Army, but we (we that are current warfighters anyway) have figured out by experience that it is not required (again, not required in some environments). Especially in the aforementioned (that means what I talked about before) relatively clean environments. So take your "back in the day I shot blah blah" and leave it there....in the past. Your brief brush with glory on the pop-up flat range when you were an 88M is long over. I would venture a guess you were one of the guys I chaptered out of the Army when I was a company commander years ago. But probably not since I have never been in pogue units. Go read your Soldier of Fortune and clean your KelTech. But most of all just go.

moshpit 06-20-2010 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbilly68 (Post 302973)
I did enlist in the Army under Reagan in the mid 80s, again you speak from a position of ignorance. I would guess you pulled a short hitch and got (thrown?) out. Are you still in the service? If so, I retract my statement. But I know you are not. My peers (which you would never have been anyway) would speak differently. Yeah I grew up in the "clean it until it squeaks" Army, but we (we that are current warfighters anyway) have figured out by experience that it is not required (again, not required in some environments). Especially in the aforementioned (that means what I talked about before) relatively clean environments. So take your "back in the day I shot blah blah" and leave it there....in the past. Your brief brush with glory on the pop-up flat range when you were an 88M is long over. I would venture a guess you were one of the guys I chaptered out of the Army when I was a company commander years ago. But probably not since I have never been in pogue units. Go read your Soldier of Fortune and clean your KelTech. But most of all just go.

You spout disrespect and therefore are worthy of the same. I served honorably for 8 years, and trained a dozen more since to go in. And shove your lowely Kel-Tech suggestion where the sun don't shine. I served same time you did, it took injury in the line of duty to get me out, so shove that alongside the Kel-tech AND your head.

Far be it for me to step over your priority to make ignorant assumptions. Chapter this *exposed butthole*

You would give your left nut to have half my DD214, or as clean a rifle as I have, clean the carbon out of your ears :P


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