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Old 05-03-2012, 02:45 PM   #241
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I have no argument, with anything ZombieKiller83 has said. But that is not where the problem lies in this never ending argument. At least not with me. Yes, everyone should buy the best AR-15 they can afford, along with the rifle that has the features that suits their needs and requirements the best. The crux of this whole thing has always been what is "the best" and what makes it so.

I'm every bit as supportive of a Bushmaster or DPMS buyer, as I am of a Mil-Spec Colt purchaser. As I said I own more than 1 of each, so why wouldn't I be? Where we constantly always end up in the same rut, is what makes what "better"? Now Ben just posted that I replied with a "smart a$$ remark" because Rob, (the guy who wrote the "chart"), can't even explain what "better" is. He's been regurgitating the same "better is better" nonsense for the past 5 years. Well come on, if the guy who wrote the damn thing can't explain "better", how the hell are you guys going to? Again back to the chart he wrote.

We've been over the fact barrel twist, chamber size, finish under the FSB, and gas key staking, are not representative of quality. What then? The fact is he cannot retrieve the information from any manufacturer that is vital to determine the quality of the parts inside. This is not his fault because companies will not release their vendor sources. Again we've been over this before, but it always is where things get hung up and side tracked with bull$h!t all the time.

There are reasons one product is better than another. But when you don't know who made the parts, let alone what they are made from, or to what standard they were manufactured to, how can you possibly judge quality? You can't, period. You certainly need to come up with a more precise explanation than... "better is better". That has been my beef from the get go. Not who buys what, or who can afford what. I'm the guy who has declared all along these parts are more the same than they are different. And that is regardless if they wind up in a Stag or a Bushmaster, or a whatever. Until we as shooters have this information, this argument will never be solved because neither side can defend their positions. If this were book it would be listed in the fiction section because that is exactly where it would belong. And no "chart" would change that.

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Old 05-03-2012, 02:51 PM   #242
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This may be stirring the pot, and is not meant to be, but who doesn't expect their firearm to eventually fail in some manner? The question, havoc, isn't if it's going to fail, it's when, on average, you can expect it to.
Failure is expected. Some of us just know we have a while longer to wait before we have to worry about it.
Your not stirring the pot by any means but a failure is a failure wether its day one on round 10 or 50,000 rounds later , nobody knows when or how often its going to happen wether its in a high end or low end rifle . People can agree to disagree on the matter , yes maybe Bushy carbon 15 has more failures compared to DD or Noveske but how many more of those C15 are sold compared to DD or Novekse , its really hard to say what the average failure rate is on rifle x or rifle y ?
Anyway Im off the subject, but I too get tired of seeing the bashing on product X or product Y or how I see a few people say product X is not that great. but yet those people have never even handled that product they are talking about just what they see and read on the forums , you always see hey product y failed while I was at the range , but how many time do you see I have cheapo product X and have shot 20,000 rds thru it without issues on a forum ? everyone over looks the good stuff and preys on the flaws they see on the forums , I have never handled a DD, Noveske, Oly , Vulcan, and many numerous others . I have only handled a hand full myself , Colt, PSA, Bushmaster, JP, Spikes, Whindam , Delton and Stag and only shot the Colt , PSA, Delton, Spikes and Bushy all which shot accurately , cycled, and functioned correctly with steel cased and brass ammo and to be quite honest with you if there would have been a piece of tape over the roll mark , I couldnt have told you one single difference between any of them other than maybe one was heavier than the another due to a couple with bull barrels on them.
People need to stop bashing , trolling, or what ever u wanna call it and start congratulating people for getting into the AR market .

I also see alot of whats the better AR15 so I found a definition that I thought fit best
More useful, suitable, or desirable to one

Fits perfect doesnt it
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:00 PM   #243
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Well said. Very well said indeed.

I have two old Colt AP1 sporters, (full size and CAR-15) and Bushmaster dissapator. All three wear ACOGs.

The Bushmaster rode in the patrol car with me until I retired.

For the money I spent on the Bushy, and the ACOG, I could have easily bought a Noveske, DD, LMT etc and put a Bushnell on it.

I chose the less expensive Bushmaster and the more expensive ACOG.

No regrets.
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I think that part I highlighted is the crux of the matter, don't you?
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yep! you nailed it!
i think ZombieKiller was pretty much on the mark with his statement. you two both are pretty much spot on too though.

many people seem to get way too much emotional about the whole AR debate and to me, a lot of good information tends to fall by the wayside. in the end, what Zombie said was true, the purchaser has to do his own research and decide what is right for him. he is the only one who will either be happy or disappointed with his purchase in the end. i was asked the other day on another thread here, would i make the same purchase i did, knowing what i know now about different AR's. quite possibly i would. it's not my responibility to do someone else's research for them when it comes to buying a rifle, a car or even a toaster. i can only evaluate and give my interpretations based on what i own or have used. sometimes, you have to take some recommendations with a grain of salt and realize that people make some recommendations based on their person use of that item. everyones needs and wants are different. another thing to consider is that there is a group who buy things because it's fashionable or cool. they want all the doodads and gadgets on their AR and want one because they think they are being cool. these are just a bunch of mall ninja wannabes IMO. the AR is a wonderful firearm with a lot of adaptability that can suit many different needs and uses. with a firearm with type of versatility, there will many differences of opinions. i like that i can change mine very simply if my needs change or i decide to go in a different direction than where i'm at right now. but one thing i do agree with, that many others have stated, buy the best that you can afford. i understand that many have a certain budget or an amount of money they can spend, well buy the best in that price range. be realistic and honest with what your needs are and your expectations are. that to me is a big factor, be honest with yourself when deciding what is best for yourself.
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #244
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I probably should add the reason I purchased so many different AR-15 brands is because I wanted to try and determine for myself which one is "better", since I couldn't be convinced any other way. 11 AR-15 rifles, and 5 manufacturers later, along with thousands of rounds of ammunition and quite a few years down the line, I still don't have an accurate answer. I'm still waiting for someone, or something to surface that will spell it out for me. Does my $2,800.00 LWRC look "cooler" than my $780.00 Bushmaster does? It used to before I put the same stock and similar handguards on it. It does clean a whole lot easier. In that regard I guess it was worth it. Like Chandler, my laziness knows no price!

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:33 PM   #245
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I think havoc and axxe are both right on. I'm glad we have so many choices out there , it would be awful boring if we all owned the same Colt. If all AR's were $1000 plus, how many fewer owners would there be? Someone may start out with a Carbon 15, but if they're happy good. Like Ben said, we need all of the pro 2nd amendment voters we can get! From what I hear once you catch BRD it's incurable!

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #246
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With today's economy much like anything else, price determines what is better for many people. In that regard Wal-Mart and Cabela's sells the "best" AR-15's.

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:41 PM   #247
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I probably should add the reason I purchased so many different AR-15 brands is because I wanted to try and determine for myself which one is "better", since I couldn't be convinced any other way. 11 AR-15 rifles, and 5 manufacturers later, along with thousands of rounds of ammunition and quite a few years down the line, I still don't have an accurate answer. I'm still waiting for someone, or something to surface that will spell it out for me. Does my $2,800.00 LWRC look "cooler" than my $780.00 Bushmaster does? It used to before I put the same stock and similar handguards on it. It does clean a whole lot easier. In that regard I guess it was worth it. Like Chandler, my laziness knows no price!
Perfect fit Bill , Im doing the same thing 5 ARs , 3 different brands of lowers, 4 different brands of uppers couple different brands of mil spec LPKs, are are more accurate than I will ever be with them shooting the max groupings of 1-1.5" groups @100 and the only thing I can physically make one seem better than another to me is what grip , stock and forearm combo that feels best to me , all of them have different grips, forearms and a couple different stocks and I have a personal preference that I like best , now if I take it off the spikes and put it on the PSA im probably going to like that one best . All this stuff if personal preference IMHO . I do have one gun I really like the looks of best but its still not my favorite because it doesnt feel best . Shoot what you like , shoot what you can afford , Shoot what feel best to you and dont let anyone get you down for what roll mark is on the side or who the upper is made by .
If you like what you bought and it shoots good without any issues do not have any regrets with what you bought
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:01 PM   #248
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Perfect fit Bill , Im doing the same thing 5 ARs , 3 different brands of lowers, 4 different brands of uppers couple different brands of mil spec LPKs and the only thing I can physically make one seem better than another to me is what grip , stock and forearm combo that feels best to me , all of them have different grips, forearms and a couple different stocks and I have a personal preference that I like best , now if I take it off the spikes and put it on the PSA im probably going to like that one best . All this stuff if personal preference IMHO . I do have one gun I really like the looks of best but its still not my favorite because it doesnt feel best . Shoot what you like , shoot what you can afford , Shoot what feel best to you and dont let anyone get you down for what roll mark is on the side or who the upper is made by .
If you like what you bought and it shoots good without any issues do not have any regrets with what you bought
AR's are like pizza. They may all look alike on the surface, but after you add the toppings (furniture) the entire meal changes. What one person wants ain't what I want, and vice versa.
I like hitting my target, so accuracy is an issue, but I'm not worried about driving tacks at 1,500 meters in a hurricane. If I can hit minute of bad guy, I'm more than happy. (I use the palm theory. If my palm covers my grouping on the target? Then Bambi is done.)
Durability and reliability are bigger issues. I went to shops and looked at their AR's in stock, wasn't happy. So, I came here and started reading and questioning people. Tried a few other sights, but found them to be filled with lapdogs of the sponsors, and was tired of seeing threads locked because 'someone didn't use the search feature' or 'come back when you actually know what you want and buy something' type moderators, which made absolutely no sense. How the hell can someone know what to buy when no one will let them ask?
I built a boring, stripped down AR, with my money going into the barrel and BCG, as I considered that the critical components, and bought what I feel was a reliable, dependable lower that was in stock. And yeah, I hate the roll mark, but it's there so I'll deal with it.
But we've all seen the bling ring AR's which require a forklift to lift, but hey, if the owner thinks that's what he needs? Go for it. Even Mall Ninja's need reliable firearms.
Still don't see an issue with them, either. They may cause us to have ammo shortages due to buying by the truck, but they're shooting!!
I am considering changing it around and adding a low profile gas block and going to a dissipator appearance, but I haven't made that decision yet.
This topic, although it seems to have rubbed quite a few the wrong way, needs to be cheered and celebrated. Why? Because look at the passion that has been displayed by the members who are ARaholics.
We're all ranting and raving, and where else can you find ONE weapon with so much variety that you can have a debate that spans pages?
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:08 PM   #249
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I say we all meet in the middle of Kansas and shoot the heck out of all of them! Just to be safe though, let's put Bill and Mike at opposite ends of the shooting line.

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Old 05-03-2012, 04:20 PM   #250
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well said Ben, well said. some buy one out of need, some buy for just the pure enjoyment of shooting an AR. some people will buy what they can afford and be happy with it and some will buy the best money can buy. nothing wrong with either. i would rather see some guy or gal buy a cheap AR and go shooting rather than them not to go shooting at all because somebody discouraged them into thinking that they needed to spend a fortune on an AR if they were giving thought to buying one. it's about personal decisions and what's right for that persons needs. assess your needs, assess your budget, then start looking around for the best available within your budget. another point to make is, the simplicity of the AR platform in relation to repairing and upgrading. just about anyone can repair or modify an AR if it needs to be. most repairs and modifications can be done at home with common household tools. this is something that can't always be said about other firearms.

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