Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion > AR-15 Discussion > AR Tiers

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-17-2012, 12:41 AM   #101
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Quentin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,467
Liked 941 Times on 666 Posts
Likes Given: 930

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_ View Post
The people that come here and are new to the AR15 world need to know that there is a difference in quality between DD and Olympic Arms. The whole "parts is parts" argument is damaging to those people who still dont have the kind of grasp on the AR15 world that would allow them to make an educated decision. It could result in a purchase of a firearm they expect the world from and they could find themselves out a good chunk of change with something that disappoints and turns then from the rifle platform. They deserve. Ether than that, and they need to see that people don't agree. I almost bought a DPMS Oracle for my first rifle because of people like Billt and I'm glad I dug further. I would have been pissed to find out that for a few hundred more I could have had a rifle that was superior is MANY ways. The quality gained by the percentage more it would have cost would have and WAS totally worth it.

Parts aren't parts. People need to know who makes a consistent high-quality product and who they run the risk of getting a rifle with issues from.
Thanks for that, Todd. This is exactly why many of us spend so much time spreading the word that there is a difference in the quality of ARs and the parts that go into them. I'm glad you figured it out and now are helping new folks.

As far as Bill's "salad bowl" AR philosopy, that opinion where since everyone gets their parts from the same source built to the same specs, why not mix them all up while cleaning rifles at the range and pick and choose any ol' parts and slap your ARs back together. Somehow I don't think even BillT would do that yet he keeps screaming "parts is parts".

Maybe that's what we should be asking everyone who believes all parts are the same, DO YOU mix and match between your ARs - or do you keep the parts separated?
__________________

______
The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together. You'll remember the quality of a gun long after you forget how much you paid for it.
________________________________________
US Army 1966-69, VFW Life Member, Retired Geek

Quentin is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:55 AM   #102
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3734 Times on 1824 Posts
Likes Given: 13269

Default

Quentin - this isn't an issue about anger or feeling slighted that my AR isn't some Tier 1 uber awesome rifle. I took a long time in researching AR's before I settled on what I wanted and I chose quality components based on that research. I also bought in at a time when ALL AR's were running well over $1k - Colts at the time were about $1600 minimum, POF about $1800, Noveske - almost $2k!!! Those prices were absurd. The reason their prices have come down - because at those prices they cannot make sales to compete with others who's pricing is reasonable. As many here have pointed out, yourself included, it is not that hard to assemble a very high quality AR for under $1k (hell the past 2 yrs folks have been doing it for under $800!)

What I was pointing out is that in part the chart does not prove quality one way or the other. A part inspected is just that - a part inspected. All the MPI tells you is that the bolt meets or exceeds mil spec, that's it. As for some of the other criteria - parkerizing under the FSB? Seriously, why is that even on the chart to begin with!?! You may not but I do hold great value in a company that will stand by it's product with a lifetime warranty (something I got with my DPMS as well).

Do some companies cut corners - absolutely! Is Bushmaster a POS rifle, I doubt it. Otherwise why would it be issued as a duty weapon (a good friend carries it while protecting the White House and other Gov't facilities). Are there better rifles out there than a DPMS M4 clone - there sure are and mine is one of them.

The heat in this argument is that all of you are doing FTF a disservice by dragging this bs argument all over FTF. We should all be encouraging folks here to do the research and help them along the best we can so that each and every one gets the best rifle they can get. Nobody needs to go out and drop coin they can't afford and if someone decides that Bushmaster is the best they can get, so be it. And if and or when a part breaks, the beauty of the AR platform is that they can go and get a quality part to replace it.

__________________

Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD

dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:56 AM   #103
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3734 Times on 1824 Posts
Likes Given: 13269

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by purehavoc View Post
My 3 sub par rifles didnt even make it on the list , But hey Im happy with them
Had to get it in before lock down !!!! This thread has been a awesome circle jerk
WOW you should stay away from the Tail Trail then ... you might have a heart attack
__________________

Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD

dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:03 AM   #104
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,427
Liked 40 Times on 39 Posts
Likes Given: 25

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by purehavoc
My 3 sub par rifles didnt even make it on the list , But hey Im happy with them
Had to get it in before lock down !!!! This thread has been a awesome circle jerk
PSA correct? They weren't around at that time to be contacted.

------

I love how the guy who bragged about his 3 boxes of ammo range trip talks down to guys who consider 1k+ a month in some sort of training course normal.
__________________

Last edited by MikeJK; 04-17-2012 at 01:09 AM.
MikeJK is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:07 AM   #105
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
purehavoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Not where I wanna be
Posts: 4,717
Liked 1116 Times on 725 Posts
Likes Given: 1990

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJK View Post
PSA correct? They weren't around at that time to be contacted.
Yeah PSA and Spikes , You know I was just jokin though , This has been a good read .
__________________
purehavoc is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:09 AM   #106
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona,Glendale, Arizona
Posts: 1,642
Liked 157 Times on 108 Posts
Likes Given: 119

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dog2000tj View Post
And if and or when a part breaks, the beauty of the AR platform is that they can go and get a quality part to replace it.
Or any part for that matter. This is what makes this whole thing about "which parts are better" so silly. The fact is you can change out an entire AR-15 bolt carrier group in under one minute for less than $150.00. Not that you would ever have to. But the fact remains that in no other military rifle can internal parts be replaced so quickly, easily, and cheaply. And with zero fitting too boot. So honestly WHO THE HELL CARES AND WHY? It's just plain silly. If G.I. Joe wants to take a "carbine course" and play on the weekend, just take an extra BCG in your range bag, along with the 650,000,000 rounds of ammo you'll be shooting in 4 1/2 minutes. What's the big problem?
__________________

Last edited by billt; 04-17-2012 at 01:12 AM.
billt is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:11 AM   #107
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,427
Liked 40 Times on 39 Posts
Likes Given: 25

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by purehavoc
Yeah PSA and Spikes , You know I was just jokin though , This has been a good read .
Sorry, sitting in my Crim Evidence class trying to type and listen to the lecture.

-----

Who cares which parts are better? Seriously? Holy **** and I forgot my waders at home.
__________________

Last edited by MikeJK; 04-17-2012 at 01:15 AM.
MikeJK is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:11 AM   #108
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
BCMjUnKiE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 231
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

If you like your AR and it does what you want it to do. Who really gives a ****. Have fun and screw all the , better than your rifle bs.
Can we just get along.

__________________
BCMjUnKiE is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:16 AM   #109
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Chandler51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: somewhere in....,Oklahoma
Posts: 2,185
Liked 62 Times on 51 Posts

Default

One of the new trends in manufacturing is process control to eliminate the need for testing. If processes are locked down and documented, unless called for by specification tests like MP are largely viewed as unnecessary. Now, that being said, even a process that is considered "6 sigma" has a failure rate of 3 parts per million. That's acceptable, unless your rifle is one of the three. I suspect that is the reason the Military specifies MP testing.

Now, I'm not arguing the merits of one rifle over the other, I'm just throwing out the info. I work for a large manufacturing company, so I know the current trend in manufacturing is process control to eliminate non "value added" activities. Testing costs money. If you can eliminate the NEED for it, you save yourself, and ultimately the customer, money. That's not necessarily cutting a corner.

Understand, my comments are geared SOLELY towards the testing portion of this argument.

__________________
"Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." -- John Wayne
Chandler51 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:16 AM   #110
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Quentin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,467
Liked 941 Times on 666 Posts
Likes Given: 930

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dog2000tj View Post
Quentin - this isn't an issue about anger or feeling slighted that my AR isn't some Tier 1 uber awesome rifle. I took a long time in researching AR's before I settled on what I wanted and I chose quality components based on that research. I also bought in at a time when ALL AR's were running well over $1k - Colts at the time were about $1600 minimum, POF about $1800, Noveske - almost $2k!!! Those prices were absurd. The reason their prices have come down - because at those prices they cannot make sales to compete with others who's pricing is reasonable. As many here have pointed out, yourself included, it is not that hard to assemble a very high quality AR for under $1k (hell the past 2 yrs folks have been doing it for under $800!)

What I was pointing out is that in part the chart does not prove quality one way or the other. A part inspected is just that - a part inspected. All the MPI tells you is that the bolt meets or exceeds mil spec, that's it. As for some of the other criteria - parkerizing under the FSB? Seriously, why is that even on the chart to begin with!?! You may not but I do hold great value in a company that will stand by it's product with a lifetime warranty (something I got with my DPMS as well).

Do some companies cut corners - absolutely! Is Bushmaster a POS rifle, I doubt it. Otherwise why would it be issued as a duty weapon (a good friend carries it while protecting the White House and other Gov't facilities). Are there better rifles out there than a DPMS M4 clone - there sure are and mine is one of them.

The heat in this argument is that all of you are doing FTF a disservice by dragging this bs argument all over FTF. We should all be encouraging folks here to do the research and help them along the best we can so that each and every one gets the best rifle they can get. Nobody needs to go out and drop coin they can't afford and if someone decides that Bushmaster is the best they can get, so be it. And if and or when a part breaks, the beauty of the AR platform is that they can go and get a quality part to replace it.
Dog, the thing is for about the same money today you can get a BCM or Bushamster. Why get the rodent when you can have the lion! I agree a few years back the prices were much different which was the main reason I went midchart for ArmaLite. Today I wouldn't buy midchart when the same money can get more.

I think it's important to point this out when someone new asks for advice, my conscience won't let me jump on the bandwagon and say "great rifle" when someone asks about a DPMS at their LGS for $800.

BTW, as far as parkerizing under the FSB, well the military demands it for a reason. I think the jungles of Vietnam taught them someting about rust. Do we need it for our ARs? Probably not but still, it is a way to cut corners. Colt, BCM, DD, LMT and others think it's important enough to do. Others don't. The old chart shows who dots all the "i" and who doesn't. Good information I'd say.
__________________

______
The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together. You'll remember the quality of a gun long after you forget how much you paid for it.
________________________________________
US Army 1966-69, VFW Life Member, Retired Geek

Quentin is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes