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Old 04-30-2012, 01:01 AM   #21
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The thing is I am talking about the M16/AR family as it was designed in the role it was designed for.

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Old 04-30-2012, 12:57 PM   #22
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MikeJK The m16 rifle was never designed to be what it is today. Some are flat tops , scoped, shooting in a sniper role or as backup out to 600 ,700 yard yards with 1 moa accuracy. Not your run of the mill m4 short barreled rifle of today. But nether is some military Hbar's going to a competition with a SS barrels and match grade trigger , NO CHROME, oh no. In some of todays latest armor tuned versions with accuracy upgrades and with with the lastest nato ammo it is doing the job at longer distances than the ole 5.56 was ever ment to do.. Times go buy ,things change . They ain't all your granddads m-16

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Old 04-30-2012, 02:23 PM   #23
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Quite the contrary. People have changed this and that to accommodate different roles but the heart and sole of the M16/AR platform is still the same. The majority of people still use it as such. Well I think they still do. That's the purpose of this thread.

As mentioned before more often than not individuals want to fall back on MOA/ group size to judge an ARs overall quality. This makes me believe most have no other intentions than shooting from a bench. That's like purchasing a race horse to casually ride around the ranch. It doesn't make sense.

This past weekend strengthened these thoughts. It was a intro/ basic class but still half of the guys couldn't even hold their rifle correctly. I saw everything. Guys standing sideways aiming the rifle across their chest and the most popular was the chicken wing. I mean it was prevalentt I had to stop by Buffalo Wild Wings on the way home I had developed such a craving. Obviously they must rarely get up from the bench. I'm not trying to put them down as most places don't allow any sort of "rapid" fire or anything of that nature. I actually commend them for getting out and giving it a go. It didn't take long for groups to shrink and triggers to speed up. I seriously need to work on my transition to weak side. I embarrassed myself as I went to shoulder the stock on the left side. I transitioned then couldn't see the dot.

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Old 04-30-2012, 04:10 PM   #24
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I think that what you are touching on is the fact that things like reliability are intangible.

You can't really practically quantify reliability if your gun is reliable and to put a number or rating on your personal gun, you need time and ammo. Its hard to rate.

The only way to do so is to do a statistical analysis with a large sample size (the larger the better and more accurate). But no manufacturer is gonna release these numbers especially if they aren't good numbers.

Accuracy on the other hand is easily tested. Anyone that owns ones can go out with a box of ammo and see what kind of groups they get. This is probably why you see so many people do so. Since its easy to do and easy to rate, it becomes something that a lot of people focus on. Its tangible.

I for one, think that a gun should be both accurate and reliable. I think they are equal. If a gun is unreliable, I don't want it. If its inaccurate, I don't want it.

Of course my definition of accuracy is probably gonna be different from yours......

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Old 04-30-2012, 04:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by AgentTikki View Post
I for one, think that a gun should be both accurate and reliable. I think they are equal. If a gun is unreliable, I don't want it. If its inaccurate, I don't want it.

Of course my definition of accuracy is probably gonna be different from yours......
I agree with this , A guy may think accurate is 3" @ 100 or even hitting a 10" paper plate @ 100 and for some this may be the best they can shoot it . Thats not a bad thing your hitting what your aiming at so if its good for you then its good enough . Accuracy for me is 1" @100 with my ARs on a good day and dime sized groups @100 with my bolt guns . Clover leaves are just a dream for me

Remember this most of us will never outshoot the gun its self.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentTikki View Post
I think that what you are touching on is the fact that things like reliability are intangible.

You can't really practically quantify reliability if your gun is reliable and to put a number or rating on your personal gun, you need time and ammo. Its hard to rate.

The only way to do so is to do a statistical analysis with a large sample size (the larger the better and more accurate). But no manufacturer is gonna release these numbers especially if they aren't good numbers.

Accuracy on the other hand is easily tested. Anyone that owns ones can go out with a box of ammo and see what kind of groups they get. This is probably why you see so many people do so. Since its easy to do and easy to rate, it becomes something that a lot of people focus on. Its tangible.

I for one, think that a gun should be both accurate and reliable. I think they are equal. If a gun is unreliable, I don't want it. If its inaccurate, I don't want it.

Of course my definition of accuracy is probably gonna be different from yours......
That is understandable and I can see how it could easily appear as and be mistaken for a end all measurement of quality.

It does get expensive to shoot any amount one might consider appropriate for measuring reliability. That's why companies like BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, and LMT are nice. They actually do it themselves and others do it for them. How many Colts are currently having their reliability tested? A metric crap ton. BCMs and DDs? Countless. How many complaints do you hear about these companies? Very few. Will my DD and BCMs shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups @ 100? Yep. To me that signifies quality.

We don't always have to rely on personal experience. Like they say, you don't have to take a bite out of a **** sandwich to know you won't like it.

We can also look at build materials and see trends in reliability. Then use this information to make informed decisions while purchasing our next AR.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:38 PM   #27
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I would argue if you plan to rely on your rifle for any kind of duty or defensive situation that no matter what make you buy, you got out and put at least 500 rounds through it and test out your magazines and the exact type of ammo you'll be using (m193 m855 hornady tap etc). No matter who made it.

and have lots of fun "function testing" your gear.

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Old 04-30-2012, 07:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by AgentTikki View Post
I would argue if you plan to rely on your rifle for any kind of duty or defensive situation that no matter what make you buy, you got out and put at least 500 rounds through it and test out your magazines and the exact type of ammo you'll be using (m193 m855 hornady tap etc). No matter who made it.

and have lots of fun "function testing" your gear.

I agree and disagree. If it's a home invasion/self defense firearm? Then use the best ammunition you can so that you can hit your groupings.
If it's a SHTF gun? Then I'm going to (and have!!) bought the cheapest crap ammo I can in that caliber, and toss it in a bowl with my high end brass, and then load up with the rounds mixed up.
My SHTF firearm MUST eat whatever I can get my hands on.
Accuracy, on my rifle has to be acceptable. I want tight, sharp groups at the range. I use the rule of palm. If I can put my palm over the grouping? Well, to borrow a phrase from the Legendary Canebrake, that's minute of bad guy all day long, and that is what I want.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:25 PM   #29
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MikeJk all bull poop a side a firearm has no heart and soul. Its a tool to be used and changed for the job its need to do or wanted for. Nothing more. Just a tool. No heart, no soul. NO firearm make is reliable till you run some rounds down range ether. It allways has to prove its worth.

BenLuby Guess you do know that some of whats suppose to be civilan mil-spec rifle may not feed cheap ole .223 well. So be sure for that day you have a lighter weight buffer with it for the under quality cheap ammo. I do want a very accurate rifle too. But that minte of BG better be at some darn long ranges or i could have had a ak many years ago. HA

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Old 04-30-2012, 08:37 PM   #30
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MikeJk all bull poop a side a firearm has no heart and soul. Its a tool to be used and changed for the job its need to do or wanted for. Nothing more. Just a tool. No heart, no soul. NO firearm make is reliable till you run some rounds down range ether. It allways has to prove its worth.

BenLuby Guess you do know that some of whats suppose to be civilan mil-spec rifle may not feed cheap ole .223 well. So be sure for that day you have a lighter weight buffer with it for the under quality cheap ammo. I do want a very accurate rifle too. But that minte of BG better be at some darn long ranges or i could have had a ak many years ago. HA
My AR has very good accuracy, that I am still tweaking, and will devour wolf, Tula, Federal, Hornady or any other ammunition I've shoved down it's throat. Over 500 rounds and not one hiccup to date.
Nor is it a babied firearm. I'll take mine out to about any range anyone else will and feel quite comfortable with it.
Of course, as others on here will tell you, I did a lot of digging and research and pestered the he11 out of quite a few before I made the jump and bought my parts.
Read all the stickies, and went on internet searches for other reviews. Didn't buy off the shelf.
Bought the upper as a complete unit, built the lower, and it rocks and rolls all day long, just like what I wanted.
A newbie going out and buying an AR then coming into a forum and saying "Did I do good?" is not a good way to do it.
Not knocking the other firearms. If someone has one and it fits their needs, I'm happy for them and wish them a long time of enjoyment out of their firearm.
Just when I'm tossing a grand down a rabbit hole? I expect a damn rabbit.
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