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Old 10-02-2012, 06:56 PM   #11
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As trip said, don't use .223 unless you know you will hit what your aiming at. If you have good shot placement, .223 is great for deer. My grandparent's have been using one for years for that.

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Old 10-02-2012, 06:58 PM   #12
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In combat the use of soft point or expanding bullets is strictly forbidden by the Gemeva convention
You know this because you "read it" somewhere. They might forbid it, but it happens DAILY.





Navy sniper's (SEAL) are authorized to engage targets with the 5.56 mk 262(77gr SMK) round out to 800 yards.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:03 PM   #13
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I can't remember exactly about twists, but I'm pretty certain that the twist required for heavier .223/5.56 bullets doesn't favor long range shooting. You'd be limiting yourself to a 1x12 twist and a varminter round like Hornady Varmint Express, not necessarily the greatest deer hunting round. I like varminter rifles personally, but I don't go for long range shots or hunt deer. My dad just uses a 30'06. With the price of them, you may as well just buy one of those for deer hunting. Just an opinion, though. I remember a guy in field and stream a long time ago that hunted deer with a ruger 10/22. Not a great idea but people will do it.

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Old 10-02-2012, 07:31 PM   #14
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^^^^^^

Don't just regurgitate things you hear!

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Old 10-02-2012, 07:38 PM   #15
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^^^^^^

Don't just regurgitate things you hear!
Not really regurgitating it. All I know is, light bullets (the kind I like) need a 1x12 to keep the bullet stabilized like a football in flight. Heavier need something totally different. Varminters are probably the most accurate AR's. They're not intended for cobmat, but hunting very small animals at medium to long range, and they're intended for shooting 40 grain bullets or lighter. If you shot a 60 grain out of a 1x12 you probably wouldn't hit crap farther than you could throw it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by willfully armed View Post
You know this because you "read it" somewhere. They might forbid it, but it happens DAILY.





Navy sniper's (SEAL) are authorized to engage targets with the 5.56 mk 262(77gr SMK) round out to 800 yards.
Dude, if I am mistaken in my statement then please show evidence of that. Just because it is done does not mean it is a violation to do so. I have no first hand knowledge in combat as I am not a veteran, but I am sure there are some veterans here who can tell you what sort of ammunition they were issued to use in combat and it does not include anything like what we use for hunting rounds.

I personally have purchased, fired and do own thousands of rounds of military surplus ammunition as well as pulled bullets in .224 caliber and have never once encountered a single round of hollow-point, soft-point or otherwise expanding projectiles. These types of projectiles behave very differently from the hunting projectiles that I use in that same caliber. Without exception the military rounds that I have fired will and do pass through 12 inches of solid wood without significant distortion (expansion) to the projectile. I have never used military rounds on any animals, so I cannot speak to that.

While much of what I know has been gained through reading, very little of that which I use was gained through my reading on the internet. Most of it was from reading the writings of acclaimed historians and writers who have first hand knowledge of the subjects. I have read accounts my Navy SEALs who have lamented the shortcomings of military combat rounds, particularly the .224 caliber, as it has a tendency to wound and not kill the target. One of note was Howard Wasdin who wrote in his book "SEAL Team 6" regarding the Black Hawk Down incident in Mogadishu where he would shoot the Somali fighters and they would not respond to being hit (this is with 5.56- he also used the .308 with better results).

Don't underrate reading my friend. In the absence of real world experience it is far better than total ignorance.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:18 PM   #17
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I would have to say using the 223 for deer 100 yards would be the max distance I would take a shot on a deer. And it would have to be a perfectly placed shot. The reason is as mentioned is there is a difference between rounds used in the military and rounds used for hunting. With the conventions adopted for military ammunition the rounds are restricted for combat. The objective there is also wounding an enemy soldier is sometimes better than killing him. So wounding is good! The reason is it takes more people away from the battle to take care of the wounded soldiers. With the hunting round we want quick kills and animals not to live with severe wounds or run off after the shot. So ammunition is much different for each purpose. But for deer and similar size game I would say no more than 100 yards for maximum effect. And even that will require excellent shot placement. I had my last deer in Texas last year shot with a Remington 7MM Rem Mag. And even with his heart and lungs mostly shredded he ran 50 yards just for an example. If I am going to shoot any animal I have the utmost respect for them and want them to die ASAP! So selecting the best round and caliber for the area and terrain you hunt is very important.

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:35 PM   #18
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it can be done, but choose wisely with your ammunition selection.

i took an ex- deer huntin with my .22 magnum (no, it's not legal, but it does, and has done EXCELLENT on deer since it was created).

she shot a 122lb doe @ 45yds thru the shoulder, double-lunged her. she ran 40yds before collapsin. the round was a 40 grain HP.

shot placement IS key, but kinetic energy to break thru hide, bone, ligament and tendons plays a major part in it also. cuz without the KE (@ yard), there is no penetration to achieve an ethical kill.

i WOULD NOT have let her shoot the doe past 50yds with that rifle.

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:42 PM   #19
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This video demonstrates that even a 22LR would be lethal beyond 200 yards (if you feel like watching it). That lends more to the .223/5.56 being lethal at those ranges.


I have no doubts about small bullets' lethality. It's just the wind at long range, it takes a few shots to line up with the current conditions, and then if you're even slightly off you've just injured the deer, or mortally wounded it and given it time to run off somewhere and die slowly. Using a bigger bullet would negate the wind conditions a bit, giving you better placement, doing more tissue damage, etc.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by slog View Post
Not really regurgitating it. All I know is, light bullets (the kind I like) need a 1x12 to keep the bullet stabilized like a football in flight. Heavier need something totally different. Varminters are probably the most accurate AR's. They're not intended for cobmat, but hunting very small animals at medium to long range, and they're intended for shooting 40 grain bullets or lighter. If you shot a 60 grain out of a 1x12 you probably wouldn't hit crap farther than you could throw it.
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I can't remember exactly about twists, but I'm pretty certain that the twist required for heavier .223/5.56 bullets doesn't favor long range shooting. You'd be limiting yourself to a 1x12 twist and a varminter round like Hornady Varmint Express, not necessarily the greatest deer hunting round. I like varminter rifles personally, but I don't go for long range shots or hunt deer. My dad just uses a 30'06. With the price of them, you may as well just buy one of those for deer hunting. Just an opinion, though. I remember a guy in field and stream a long time ago that hunted deer with a ruger 10/22. Not a great idea but people will do it.

i beg to differ. lighter bullets do fine in shorter ranges up to 300-400 yards in the 223/556 then they lose velocity like mad and drop right into the dirt. to get out to longer ranges you need a much better coefficient than what you find in lighter varmint bullets. typically 77-80 grain .224 bullets are what is used at very long ranges up to 1000yards in the 80 grain variety. 69-77 is typically used for up to 700-800 yards.

one of my AR15's is a precision rifle capable of .55 inch groups at 300 yards using 62grain bullets.

the barrel



the gun



the group at 300. flier is from a 69grain SMK 3 at .55 are ss109 62 grain FMJBT. ran out of 109's and continued to shoot one more before cease fire was called using the SMK



if you include the stray its still under half moa



lighter bullets and faster twists are used at shorter ranges typically 350 or less for shooting varmints like prairie dogs and such where you want the speed to keep the trajectory flat as possible for a couple hundred yards. after that it bleeds off extremely rapidly making them very poor bullets for longer range stuff
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