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Old 01-24-2009, 06:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dick Manley View Post
1. There are major differences. A good portion of compies produce out of spec crap when they claim to be in spec. Olympics arms being the worst, I wouldnt use one as a door stop. Bushy, RRA, and DPMS are hit or miss. Stag is ok but they too have issues. The first gen Smith lowers left something to be desired (made by Stag) but ot are made by smith and are top notch. Some other reputable lowers are Larue, Sun Devil, Noveske (one the best), Spikes Tactical, Defensive edge.

2. It does, read above mentioned text

3. The suggested retail set by Smith (before the election hoopla) was $160. So your not paying to much over retail.

-DM-
No, it doesn't matter. A receiver is merely a piece that will hold the quality components. if you have someone competitent putting the item together, who knows what he is doing and understands how to assemble a quality firearm, it doesn't matter who's name is on the side. I would put my hand built Olympic arms against any AR in your arsenal.

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I understand your a Mod and all, but I really dont know where you are getting your info. No one here (MA) had to turn anyhting in, and they were already "registered" through NICS and the state (State Form F/A-10)

-DM-
Actaully we had a resident member here, RL357Mag, who informed that States in the North East were required to turn weapons over. I had never heard that, but the man was a quality poster and knew his stuff. I took him at his word....

JD
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:37 PM   #12
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No, it doesn't matter. A receiver is merely a piece that will hold the quality components. if you have someone competitent putting the item together, who knows what he is doing and understands how to assemble a quality firearm, it doesn't matter who's name is on the side. I would put my hand built Olympic arms against any AR in your arsenal.



Actaully we had a resident member here, RL357Mag, who informed that States in the North East were required to turn weapons over. I had never heard that, but the man was a quality poster and knew his stuff. I took him at his word....

JD

Im not gonna argue about whos gun is better and whose brand is better. I dont want to get banned on my first day. With the we will just agree to disagree.

When the Perm ban went into effect her in MA a lot of people who had Permits did lose them b/c of prop OUI offenses (Drunk Driving) or other now disqaulifying acts and may have had to sell them because of it, but there are a ton of so called MA preban AR's and mags floating around here that fetch a pretty penny. Like $700 for a lower and such.

-DM-
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:55 PM   #13
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Here is a thread where the possible ban was coming up and there was talk of what went on the first time.

Now, as for the mythos of the AR-15 Receiver, I would love for you to explain to us how one one receiver is much better than another when built by someone who knows what they are doing, using quality parts with an end goal of building a fine performing weapon.

I am not going to ban you for disagreeing with me. I haven't banned anyone who wasn't a spammer, but I have several discussions with people who have perpetuated the Internetz Myths that you have to buy the name brand guns, and go into debt doing it, to protect their family/property.

it's simply not true and this is one of the true forums on the internet where the guys who have built their own, who have competed with weapons they built, have chipped in knowledge to help those that don't make $60K a year build and or afford a reliable AR weapon.

Are there complete guns that come from a parts warehouse that aren't as good as a spec gun? Of course.

Are there complete guns that come from Colt, or Noveske, or the mighty D&L Sports that got built on a Friday afternoon that don't perform? Of Course there are.

To categorically dismiss an entire product line based on one person's say so is ridiculious.

I would like to know the reasons, and the examples, that you have to prove that everyone should go into debt and purchase the most expensive AR's on the market because anything else is going to let us down when we need it most...

JD
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Old 01-24-2009, 09:11 PM   #14
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I never said people should go broke building or buying a rifle. But I feel that they should buy a rifle with the best proven track record especially if they are going to stake thier life on its reliability.

Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms and several other companies (those state being the biggest culprits) have awful quality control, and cant even meet the military's TDP (Techincal Data Package). Food for thought on that, the military goes to the lowest bidder, but has a set of rules that must be followed strictly. The go as far as to have Govornment inspectors at the manufactuering plants inspecting these parts and complete rifles.

The above named companies cant even get the little things right, like properly staking gas carrier keys or castle nuts, or installing the correct height front sight post (Correct one being "F" marked) or supplying the propper H buffers or extractor springs and extractor buffers. Or even doing HP or MPI testing. HP testing is high pressure testing and MPI is Magnetic Particle testing and both ensure that the bolts and carriers will have a long life and be able to stand up to rigorous use. What about using weaker barrel steel to save a couple of pennies per unit. And not having the propper 1:7 twist rates to shoot heavier than 60 grain bullets with good terminal ballistics performance.

These compaines claim that they also have 556 Nato chambers and there are many documented instances where this is not the case. Many devolop problems when the end user tries to use 556 and have only used 223 up to that poin and then have extraction issues. They in turn have to have the chanber reamed and sure as **** the chambers are not truly 556.

Then you get onto the subject of lowers and uppers, a lot of the lower tier companies do not stay within specs, I have seen uppers that do not line up with lowers (Oly arms) and lowers where mags will not fit properly or just the overall tolerances are to tight or to loose.

Here are a few links that may clarify some of the info im talking about.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA

Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands - M4Carbine.net Forums

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19082

When you factor in price to these rifles there really is no savings once you fix the problems that are fixable, I.E. extractor springs, buffers, fronts sight bases, action springs and buffers etc etc.

The real bottom line is that for the common shooter that will shool less than 1,000 rnds a year these rifles are perfect. But for the end user who takes thier job,value of life and deployment of thier rifle seriously they just do not stack up.

To me its like comparing a Hyundai Accent to a HMMV. you really have figure out what your role is, and where along the line you fit. Are you a plinker? Causual Shooter? Serous Minded Shooter? or Professional where you need the most reliable and best gear to aid in keeping you alive!

DISCLAIMER: I am not a Subject Matter expert and I do not claim to be one. I have attained just enough information about this subject to get me by and thereby stay slightly informed. A great deal of this information was learned from some truly amazing professionals from another forum. I am just trying to help others become informed and not spend thier hard earned money on junk. Also for the record I also dont make $60K, try about $25k less.
-DM-

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Old 01-24-2009, 10:06 PM   #15
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That post goes a long ways towards explaining YOUR position. Of the links, two are from m4carbine and one doesn't work. Well, M4 seems to have some firm beliefs, but there isn't anything knowledge wise that isn't covered here, but it's covered in more of a negative light.

The fact of the matter is, you are talking about complete builds, put together by someone else, of which the "end user" has no input.

One of the things that we completely stress here is that the person who is going to do the shooting, NEEDS to be involved with the rifle and needs to be involved in what is going on with the build and the performance.

The more familiar the user is with the goings on, the more able they are to:

1) Check the rifle prior to going to the range

2) Diagnose the rifle while at the range

3) Effectively clean and maintain the weapon.

The receiver isn't the issue - The ability to put it together and make sure that the damn thing runs is the issue. If you have a moron putting it together, with sub par parts, you are going to get a sub-par weapon.

If you know what goes into the weapon, if you understand how the weapon works, you can effectively make changes if you feel them necessary, but you will always be able to diagnose any problems - whether on the battlefield or at the range....

JD

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