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Old 02-01-2011, 08:08 PM   #21
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Well, we'll see how that works. Seems like the Army once said the M14 was going to consolodate a few weapons systems!

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Old 02-01-2011, 08:21 PM   #22
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Just depends on which idiot has the final say. He will in all likelyhood have never seen combat, so whatever decision he makes will be based on who greases his pocket the most. What I have been told is that there will be a drop in piston kit that will be installed. Some of them are pretty reliable, some aren't worth the scrap metal they can be sold for.
Back before Vietnam, the Soldier was allowed to modify his weapon any way he wanted. There wasn't any higher level maintenance, so he repaired it as well. He was the one who had to depend on it to save his ass. I think it should have stayed that way.

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Old 02-02-2011, 02:02 AM   #23
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I would just like to know where some get their information from?

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Old 02-02-2011, 03:11 AM   #24
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I would just like to know where some get their information from?

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all answers to all questions can be found on the interwebz. it is the font of all knowledge from which we drink. duh. where you been. the interweb does not lie.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:11 PM   #25
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all answers to all questions can be found on the interwebz. it is the font of all knowledge from which we drink. duh. where you been. the interweb does not lie.
Also, many of us have served, or are currently serving in the military, so we have first hand knowledge.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:39 PM   #26
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Major revamp possible for M4 carbine - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The above was in 2009, and things have moved up since. I understand a contract has been awarded.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #27
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Major revamp possible for M4 carbine - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The above was in 2009, and things have moved up since. I understand a contract has been awarded.
I had never read that article. I got out in 05 ( 11b 10th Mnt. Div. ). There were a few things going on at that time. Most interesting was a full body climate controlled suit. They had a couple guys sitting out in the eliments for x amount of days. If you dont know what a Ft. Drum winter is like it gets 40 below. It even snow during late spring and it even snowed on us in June. I like that they are trying to make changes to the M4. The thing I dont think a ground pounder would like is the amount of improvements that add weight. A heavier barrel combined w/ a piston system. Why? None of us fire full auto. Well I did due to the fact I was a SAW gunner. You cant engage targets at the distances being fought in Afghan on full auto w/ any accuracy. Another thing I dont like is that theyre trying to replace the SAW w/ an upgraded M16 using those dual drum mags. Talk about heavy a hell and akward. Explain how one is going to carry 4-6 of those on a vest. Stupid.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:31 PM   #28
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I had never read that article. I got out in 05 ( 11b 10th Mnt. Div. ). There were a few things going on at that time. Most interesting was a full body climate controlled suit. They had a couple guys sitting out in the eliments for x amount of days. If you dont know what a Ft. Drum winter is like it gets 40 below. It even snow during late spring and it even snowed on us in June. I like that they are trying to make changes to the M4. The thing I dont think a ground pounder would like is the amount of improvements that add weight. A heavier barrel combined w/ a piston system. Why? None of us fire full auto. Well I did due to the fact I was a SAW gunner. You cant engage targets at the distances being fought in Afghan on full auto w/ any accuracy. Another thing I dont like is that theyre trying to replace the SAW w/ an upgraded M16 using those dual drum mags. Talk about heavy a hell and akward. Explain how one is going to carry 4-6 of those on a vest. Stupid.
Most GI's won't get the beta mags-the regular magazines will work just fine. The piston system doesn't add but a couple of ounces to the package. So for the rifle itself, maybe a pound, to a pound and a half weight added. Most Soldiers won't really notice the difference. Still weighs less than a SAW. Most GI's will leave the selector to SEMI when in use. But if they need it, they will have the ability to fire AUTO reliably. The selecter will change the rifle from closed bolt to open bolt to reduce possibility of a cookoff.
I have seen the beta mag and the plastic container for the SAW belt fed ammo side by side, the beta mag takes less space. I have used the beta mag, and it felt like it belonged on my rifle. It doesn't weigh much, and it doesn't take up a lot of space. I can put it in a 4 mag pouch.
I see your point though: the M4 was suppose to be a lighter rifle, but it seems like the higher ups use it as an excuse to hang more crap on the rifle, sort of like our "improved rucksack". They made it more ergonomic, but used that as an excuse to add more junk we gotta stuff in it.
I have 4 AR's, 3 with a DI system, one with a piston. The piston I use when I wanna run a LOT of rounds through it, the DI's when I want to shoot for accuracy and range. I built all of them. Both types have their good points and weaknesses.
I don't know how long it will take the Army to feild the changes. May not even happen before I retire.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:23 PM   #29
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Most GI's won't get the beta mags-the regular magazines will work just fine. The piston system doesn't add but a couple of ounces to the package. So for the rifle itself, maybe a pound, to a pound and a half weight added. Most Soldiers won't really notice the difference. Still weighs less than a SAW. Most GI's will leave the selector to SEMI when in use. But if they need it, they will have the ability to fire AUTO reliably. The selecter will change the rifle from closed bolt to open bolt to reduce possibility of a cookoff.
I have seen the beta mag and the plastic container for the SAW belt fed ammo side by side, the beta mag takes less space. I have used the beta mag, and it felt like it belonged on my rifle. It doesn't weigh much, and it doesn't take up a lot of space. I can put it in a 4 mag pouch.
I see your point though: the M4 was suppose to be a lighter rifle, but it seems like the higher ups use it as an excuse to hang more crap on the rifle, sort of like our "improved rucksack". They made it more ergonomic, but used that as an excuse to add more junk we gotta stuff in it.
I have 4 AR's, 3 with a DI system, one with a piston. The piston I use when I wanna run a LOT of rounds through it, the DI's when I want to shoot for accuracy and range. I built all of them. Both types have their good points and weaknesses.
I don't know how long it will take the Army to feild the changes. May not even happen before I retire.
What is your MOS and duty station?

I'm not trying to be a prick but I'm a little confused as to why our experiences are so different. I'm just trying to put the info together. If my experiences were somehow out of the norm Id like to adjust my outlook accordingly.

Who still uses the plastic containers SAW ammo comes in? We stopped using those in 03'. I thought even the pogues went w/ the cloth drums. They have a nice little zipper so you can take your ammo in and out. It works great for giving round counts for after action reports. You patrol w/ a 50rd cloth "drum." After receiving contact and 3-5 sec. bursting through those fifty rounds you grab one of the 2 100 cloth drums. The Betta mags shape alone would make it odd to carry. Place 3 Betta mags on the ground then lay your chest across them in the prone position. Tell me how that feels on your lower back and how low you're going to be able to get when going prone. The SAW pouches are flat and their square design utilizes space more economically. Thats a big deal for a guy who has to carry everything for a weeks patrol mission on their body.

A pound to a pound and a half? Do you realize how much that is? Have you walked up and down the mountains of Afghanistan for 18hrs? The last 5 of those w/o water? A pound to a pound and a half is like 100. Hell a cold weather top and bottom makes a difference.

I also own a piston gun and a couple DIs.

Two examples:

DD 14.5" mid length, lightweight barrel, 12" DD quad rail.


LWRC 14.7" carbine, medium barrel, 13" TRX tube w/ top rail only.


The LWRC is much heavier even with a much lighter rail. Much heavier than the difference in weight of the 2 barrels. Its heavier than my 16" Spikes mid length w/ same rail and optic.
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:27 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=mjkeat;436176]What is your MOS and duty station?

I'm not trying to be a prick but I'm a little confused as to why our experiences are so different. I'm just trying to put the info together. If my experiences were somehow out of the norm Id like to adjust my outlook accordingly.

I am a 63X. Been in Infantry, Armor, Cav, Eng, Chem, IT, CSH, FSP, FST units. Basically wherever Uncle Sugar sends me. The units I go to vary a lot. Most of the time I have been at places that have vietnam or earlier gear, so we end up looking like the Bad News Bears when we go somewhere to train. A while back I decided to just start accumilating my own field gear so I wouldn't have to depend on the unit to have stuff that was serviceable.
Most Soldiers, including myself, will never have to walk the mile you traveled. We only need the basic M4 with a few mags. I am currently in a CSH, which is not allowed to carry anything other than a M16/M4 or a 9MM. No machine guns. But when our guys can be just as dead when we go outside the wire. And when the sh** hits the fan, our troops need to be able to respond with auto fire if necessary, and use the rifle as a light machine gun for a short time.
You guys in the 10th Mountain are a different sort, and need different gear than the rest of us, including dedicated machine guns. For the rest of us not rucking it for days or weeks on end, one 5.56 gun should do the trick if it is a good one.

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