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Old 05-21-2012, 02:36 PM   #21
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Deleted...

Looks like a couple posts were deleted before I could finish then post a response. So I'll just act like the brothers never posted.

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Old 05-21-2012, 04:18 PM   #22
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Yeah, we crossed a line and got yanked back...lol.

The point I was trying to make and will try to make again without crossing that line is;
The colt m16/m4 is designed to run on a certain ammo. It's part of the requirement of function and part of the inspection process of the weapon to only fire and use the weapon with this ammo. When the us government altered that ammo the weapon became unreliable and now many people still have a poor view of the ar15 based on that incident... You all have heard it..ar15s are not as reliable as ak47s..blah blah blah. Well that all stems from the change of ammo.
I don't care what you run in your firearm. That's none of my business. I will say this. The human brain only remembers what is good and what is bad in certain situations. I watched a guy clear 2 short strokes in a 30rd magazine. He returned to the benches and said, "I love this rifle, runs like a champ." His mind completely blocked out the immediate action drills. I know a lot of you say you run your mil-spec rifles flawless on cheaper ammo. That's cool. I just wonder what your in your mind = flawless. How many rounds are we talking about? Can you load up ...say 10 magazines and have no immediate actions clears?.
I know I can do this, but my rifle is not mil-spec. I know when I did own a full mil-spec rifle and carbine I couldn't run cheap ammo. Couple hundred down the pipe was all it would take before serious problem jams forced me to snake it and shake it.
Ymmv I guess.

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Old 05-21-2012, 04:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
The point I was trying to make and will try to make again without crossing that line is;
The colt m16/m4 is designed to run on a certain ammo. It's part of the requirement of function and part of the inspection process of the weapon to only fire and use the weapon with this ammo. When the us government altered that ammo the weapon became unreliable and now many people still have a poor view of the ar15 based on that incident... You all have heard it..ar15s are not as reliable as ak47s..blah blah blah. Well that all stems from the change of ammo.
I don't care what you run in your firearm. That's none of my business. I will say this. The human brain only remembers what is good and what is bad in certain situations. I watched a guy clear 2 short strokes in a 30rd magazine. He returned to the benches and said, "I love this rifle, runs like a champ." His mind completely blocked out the immediate action drills. I know a lot of you say you run your mil-spec rifles flawless on cheaper ammo. That's cool. I just wonder what your in your mind = flawless. How many rounds are we talking about? Can you load up ...say 10 magazines and have no immediate actions clears?.
I know I can do this, but my rifle is not mil-spec. I know when I did own a full mil-spec rifle and carbine I couldn't run cheap ammo. Couple hundred down the pipe was all it would take before serious problem jams forced me to snake it and shake it.
Ymmv I guess.
Good explanation. You can buy a $68,000.00 Z0-6 Corvette. It will perform as advertised. You can then detune it to run reliably on 87 grade cut rate regular, so you can drive it cheaper. In order to do so you must change things that were not part of the original design. Compression, timing, etc. all must all be altered. The point is you did not "improve" it. You altered it as you saw fit to run on cheaper fuel. A weapon is not much different.

Many high end AR-15 rifles will not operate reliably on cheap, filthy, cut rate Wolf ammunition. There is nothing "wrong" with them. They were purpose built without compensating for the various issues and problems that ammunition produces. If the owner changes that, has hasn't "improved" anything. He has altered it.
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #24
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Fixer, I shoot a decent amount. At one point 1k in 2-3 30 min. wasn't uncommon. I would do that in less than a week. The reason for the short range trips, to keep from getting complacent. Short, precise sessions have proven to keep the mind focused and technique sharp.

With the semester nearing an end, life, and ammunition being harder to find I have been forced to slow down. However I have supplemented this w/ classes. I've also been shooting 9mm more as apposed to just .223/5.56.

If a firearm fails I sell it. In my opinion firearms serve one purpose everything else is a byproduct.

That said I have had three (3) issues w/ steel cased ammunition. A short stroke and two (2) hard primers. The ftf was due to a heavy buffer. I carry an assortment of buffers in the range back for this reason. That's in thousands of rounds. I wouldn't use it if it wasn't gtg. A lot of shooters use it w/o issue. I've found that those that think otherwise usually haven't had that much experience behind the trigger.

Edit: BCM, DD, LWRC = quality?

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Edit: BCM, DD, LWRC = quality?
Sure, high end gear. I don't call LWRC mil-spec as it relates to C-71186, or R-63997, but its high end.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fixer

Sure, high end gear. I don't call LWRC mil-spec as it relates to C-71186, or R-63997, but its high end.
But but but quality ARs don't run steel case reliably. That's real world data.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #27
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But but but quality ARs don't run steel case reliably. That's real world data.
I never said that. You seem to think mil-spec and high quality are the same thing... they are not.

FYI- BCM used to have a disclaimer on their website stating some of their firearms would not reliably feed cheap ammo. That doesnt mean its not high quality nor does it mean the firearm is broken nor does it mean mil-spec is high quality...nor does it mean reliably feeding cheap ammo = a poor firearm or a cheap firearm.

Once again Mike you are pushing me. Stop it. You have no idea how knowledgable I am in the M16/AR15 platform. I have been at this since 1984. Even in the 1970s I was shooting AR15s.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:28 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer

I never said that. You seem to think mil-spec and high quality are the same thing... they are not.

FYI- BCM used to have a disclaimer on their website stating some of their firearms would not reliably feed cheap ammo. That doesnt mean its not high quality nor does it mean the firearm is broken nor does it mean mil-spec is high quality...nor does it mean reliably feeding cheap ammo = a poor firearm or a cheap firearm.

Once again Mike you are pushing me. Stop it. You have no idea how knowledgable I am in the M16/AR15 platform. I have been at this since 1984. Even in the 1970s I was shooting AR15s.
I never said you did. I named a couple manufacturers of the ARs I own and asked if they were quality. Someone had said high quality ARs don't run steel cased reliably. You answered the question. Now your getting all emotional like a pms'ing female. This after you pm me acting tough calling me names and telling me you'd teach me a thing or 2 if I came to Cali. Well funny thing I'm here. Like I mentioned in my pm response to yours. I never received a follow up pm. Strange? Not so much. That's kind of a chic move. Talk **** then get emotional like I hurt your feelings when I didn't make any reference to you.

Time is not a measurement of ability, knowledge or know-how. Look at DPMS as a good example of that. They've been making ARs for awhile and still can't get it right on a consistent basis.

And by the way I don't believe I named names. You just assumed I was talking about you. That makes me believe you feel you resembled my statement.

Used to's and did at one time's, are as reliable as a mentally retarded crack head.

I've asked for your credentials and you never answered other than to tell me you were a support MOS. You claimed you were an instructor but wouldn't tell me who you instructed for or where.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:41 AM   #29
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There appears to be a misapplied consensus on this forum that tries to equate, for whatever reason, some abstract correlation of weapon quality and reliability, to said weapons ability to perform with Wolf, Tula, and other brands of cheap, steel cased ammunition.

The fact of the matter is weapon quality has nothing to do with a guns ability to digest this stuff one way or the other. If a weapon does not properly function shooting Wolf, it means nothing as to the determination of the quality of said weapon. I don't know who started this or why, but it is completely stupid to try and relate the two. You wouldn't judge the "quality" of a vehicle by it's ability to burn cheap, unrefined fuel, so why would you do the same thing with a weapons ability to shoot cheap, filthy, imported ammunition? It makes no sense.

Many high end AR-15 manufacturers advise against using this stuff, the same way high performance auto makers advise against low octane gasoline. The product, be it gun or car, is not set up for it. If the owner wishes to alter either he has not made either product "more reliable".

If you choose to shoot this stuff because of affordability and cost, fine. No one is criticizing anyone for doing so. But it doesn't end there, it only starts. This nonsense that if a $1,500.00 rifle won't shoot cheap $4.00 a box ammo, it's the guns fault, is ridiculous. You can mechanically alter most any AR-15 to fire this stuff if you are desperate enough to shoot it. That doesn't mean if you don't because you would rather shoot high quality ammunition, your gun is somehow less mechanically sound. Anymore than a Indy car is because it has to run on Methanol instead of gasoline. This isn't apples and oranges. It's total $h!t. All of it.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:43 AM   #30
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^ the reason I never answered your PM was because I placed you on my ignore list... I never got it. Now I see I was wrong...to remove you from my ignore list. I have no need for you in my life.
Dont bother PM or replying. I will never see anything from you nor will anything you ever say effect my life. How about you do the same to me. Just ignore me.

Its done. He's on my ignore list for good now. One of you good folk might want to explain to him what that means and show him how to do it to mmy name. Seems he doesnt understand a lot of things.

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