Is the .223 FMJ worth anything in application? - Page 2
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:11 PM   #11
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One thing I have heard/read about the FMJ is that at high velocities, the bullet will become unstable on impact and start to tumble, and then it will break at the cannelure. The range is limited for this (maybe 150 yards for a 20" barrel, or 100 yards for a 16.5", not sure exactly) but this is just as lethal as a HP. The advantage the hollowpoint (and probably glaser as well) has is that it dumps all of the muzzle energy really quickly into the target.

Both seem pretty decent too me. Try shooting ~6 or 7 2x4's sometime thoough and you will see how the bullet turns sideways as it goes through.

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Old 09-10-2009, 10:26 PM   #12
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I have dumped white tail plenty of times with a .223FMJ. Of course these were head shots and at ranges under 70 yards. Unless you are a really good shot, ya prolly should stick to a deer rifle to kill deer or you may only end up walking a blood trail.

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Old 09-11-2009, 03:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by i978transam View Post
One thing I have heard/read about the FMJ is that at high velocities, the bullet will become unstable on impact and start to tumble, and then it will break at the cannelure. The range is limited for this (maybe 150 yards for a 20" barrel, or 100 yards for a 16.5", not sure exactly) but this is just as lethal as a HP. The advantage the hollowpoint (and probably glaser as well) has is that it dumps all of the muzzle energy really quickly into the target.
Is it OK if I disagree with the above remark?

5.56 x 45mm, 'bullet yaw' is a principal function of: bullet design, weight, and velocity. It is largely dependent on barrel length. Anything shorter than a 20" barrel does NOT seem to produce sufficient yaw to equal or rival the performance of a JHP fired from a similar length barrel. In fact 5.56, 'bullet yaw' is a highly desirable impact characteristic - better, in fact, that using a JHP bullet which generally dispenses energy too quickly, and has difficulty penetrating both ballistic armor or bodies.

Ain't ever heard nothing about steel/tungsten cored M855 easily fragmenting, though. That's a new one to me.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:41 AM   #14
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:50 PM   #15
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Bullet yaw isn't a function of velocity or barrel length, it's dependant on how well the bullet is axially aligned with the bore. If the bullet starts out not pointing exactly straight down the bore, it will come out crooked as well.

G21.45:
You said "anything shorter than a 20" barrel does NOT seem to produce sufficient yaw to equal or rival the performance of a JHP fired from a similar length barrel." So that would mean a longer barrel produces more yaw? Yaw is bad for accuracy, and longer barrels are generally accepted as more accurate, so something doesn't match up with that statement.

But ya, read through the ammo oracle site that ranger_sxt listed and then go shoot stuff and test it. The 5.56 FMJ is fine in my opinion and experiences, but what do I know? Are there any combat vets on the forum who can give suggestions?

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Old 09-11-2009, 04:12 PM   #16
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I'll be your huckleberry!!

Short summary: M193 and M855 do not yaw reliably. Dr. Fackler has been quoted as saying that 25% of the time, M855 or M193 fails to yaw and/or fragment, even when it has sufficient velocity to do so. Recent research cited by Dr. Gary K. Roberts has demonstrated a phenomenon that may help explain this called "fleet yaw."

Quote:

"Fleet Yaw is the other significant yaw issue discovered by the JSWB-IPT. Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance variation caused by inherent variability in each rifle and occurs in all calibers. 5.56 mm FMJ appears to suffer more Fleet Yaw induced variability than other projectile calibers & types. 6.8 mm OTM’s appear to have less Fleet Yaw variations than other projectile calibers & types tested."

What this means is that two shooters firing the same lot of M855 from their M4’s with identical shot placement can have dramatically different terminal performance results: one shooter states that his M855 is working great and is effective at dropping bad guys, while the other complains his opponent is not being incapacitated because M855 is zipping right through the target without upsetting. Both shooters are telling the truth."
M193 and M855 show the worst variations in Angle of Attack and Fleet Yaw. If you are using these for home defense, it may be worth your time to verify that the rounds do in fact yaw and fragment in your particular barrel. If you want to minimize Fleet Yaw problems without conducting your own experiments, then ammunition selection can help by either:

1. Using rounds with thin jackets and consistent production (OTM)
2. Using rounds that do not rely on yawing and fragmentation in order to be effective

I would suggest that the phenomena would be caused by something other than the rifle such as the bullet being slightly off its seat due to mishandling or mass manufacturing. A cartridge dropped on the floor could cause the tip of the bullet to become malformed and possibly move the bullet a thousandth or two from being concentric with the case. Considering the speed and rotational values either or both could cause changes in flight and terminal results.

The Hague Convention prohibiting the use of expanding bullets (which the United States did not sign) entered into force in 1900. The second Hague Convention which prohibited projectiles "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" (which the United States did sign) entered into force in 1907. NATO adopted the FMJ for the purpose of reducing battlefield deaths. This and the outlawing of gas changed the face of warfare for the civilized world. Commanders had also figured out that a wounded man took a lot more resources than a dead one.

Back to the 5.56 in the home. It takes about 20 meters for the bullet to stabilize. Laboratory test shoots of gel take place at distances of 10 yds or so and scientists seem to have no difficulty reproducing results at that distance, so it seems there is a fair amount of consistency in what happens under 20m.

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Old 09-11-2009, 05:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
Yes, it is. The OP needs to learn more about the impact characteristics of FMJ ammo. The Hague Convention aside, there are good and valid reasons, 'Why' every major army in the world uses FMJ ammo. (And, 'Why' the US military usually does!)
Im not sure it would be accurate to say that because the military uses it, it must be good. In war, an injured soldier is in many ways better than a dead one, because that injured soldiers requires other people (as well as medical supplies which cost $$$) to keep them alive.

Just some food for thought.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by aliendroid View Post
Would the .223 FMJ bullets be good for hunting or home protection in an AR15 if you couldn't get other types of bullets? What other types of bullets are there in .223 that would be better?
I think that your original point was: Is a .223 any good for hunting with?
.
The answer of course is: Maybe. Of course the answer you will get from gun-bigot would be, “if it aint as big as mine, it won’t work!”
.
Texas requires only that you hunt with a firearm that is “Center fire”. That means just about anything but a .22 or a .17HMR. (and a few others). Will a .223 work for hunting deer? The answer is, “Yes”. However, just like any other firearm, it is the bullet placement that is important, not the brand of bullet or rifle. My first dear last year was taken with a Kel-Tec P-11… a firearm that many people tell you is not even a firearm.
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If you are planning to sit in a deer stand, half-way up a tree and shoot the “Sniper’s Shot” at game two or three miles a way, go with the .50cal. If you plan on shooting from a deer stand 50 to 100 yards from the feeder, then get a good deer rifle. However, if you like to actually “HUNT”, then the .223 would be just fine for any shot where you don’t need a $400 scope to see what you are shooting.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by i978transam View Post
...... G21.45:
You said "anything shorter than a 20" barrel does NOT seem to produce sufficient yaw to equal or rival the performance of a JHP fired from a similar length barrel." So that would mean a longer barrel produces more yaw? Yaw is bad for accuracy, and longer barrels are generally accepted as more accurate, so something doesn't match up with that statement.

But ya, read through the ammo oracle site that ranger_sxt listed and then go shoot stuff and test it. The 5.56 FMJ is fine in my opinion and experiences, but what do I know? Are there any combat vets on the forum who can give suggestions?
Not to start a flame war (Really!) but I've read, 'Ammo Oracle' for many years, now. You have used the term, 'yaw' as a flight characteristic; I used it, perhaps ambiguously, as a synonym for, 'bullet tumbling'.

I know, for a fact, that the M-4 carbine suffers from insufficient impact trauma. The military's reason - and NOT my own - is that the shorter 14.5" carbine barrel fails to achieve sufficient velocity in order to: go as fast, hiit as hard, or tumble as much as the same M855 ammunition when fired from the standard 20" barrel.

These are facts that I have repeatedly read about and studied on the internet. I've been particularly interested in this subject and have remembered the facts well because I own and use a Colt 6920LE. I don't think I'm correct about this; I know it.

Again, didn't mean to start an argument over something this trivial; but, it's just the way it is - OK. And, by the way, I'm beginning to think that the internet can be used to, 'validate' just about any opinion. That's, 'Why' I always look for a number of different sources and references before I'm ready to make up my mind.

IGETEVEN, are you aware that American long range snipers in, both, Afghanistan and Iraq have been using Hornady, 'A-Max' ballistic tip ammo?

Megatron, The number of casualties really isn't what I'm addressing, here. I was thinking more about: body armor, barricades, and lightly armored positions and equipment.

Other than this, 'shooting to wound' is a really stupid idea.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
Yes, it is. The OP needs to learn more about the impact characteristics of FMJ ammo. The Hague Convention aside, there are good and valid reasons, 'Why' every major army in the world uses FMJ ammo. (And, 'Why' the US military usually does!)
My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is the 5.56 FMJ was adopted by NATO because it was less lethal than a soft-tip or hollow-point. It was very good at injuring someone, which had the advantages of taking them out the fight, risking more enemies to pull and carry that person to safety, and consuming significant enemy medical resources to care for that person.
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