What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m! - Page 4
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What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m!


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Old 11-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #31
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Okay, no problem. The M1 was supplied to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease Act of Congress. It was studied and reported to the state committee (at the same meeting in 1943 where the StG prototype was also reported) The results of those studies were made available to several competing designers, among them Kalashnikov. Copied is not the word I would use. He incorporated what he liked from the foreign designs, as all small arms engineers have done since times immemorial. The Soviets used to never admit lifting ideas from the adversary, even when it was completely normal course of business. (Partly because of the notorious cases of reverse engineering, such as the TU4 long range bomber, or stealing, such as the space shuttle Buran)
M1 Garands were not given out on lend lease during the Second World War. We needed every one we could get and hang on to. Some probably did end up in Soviet hands in one way or another. I do know that Kalashnikov had access to captured M1 carbines. Seems logical that they got a few Garands as well.
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Old 11-02-2013, 06:59 PM   #32
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M1 Garands were not given out on lend lease during the Second World War. We needed every one we could get and hang on to. Some probably did end up in Soviet hands in one way or another. I do know that Kalashnikov had access to captured M1 carbines. Seems logical that they got a few Garands as well.
M1 carbines were supplied on lend-lease. I did not say Garands. It doesn't matter anyway doc, if you pay attention to the subject at hand. Same rotating bolt lockup action.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:49 PM   #33
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Looking at the lend lease with the US and USSR for the Second World War, small arms weren't part of it.

From: World War II The War Against Germany And Italy, US Army Center Of Military History, page 158.

"In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease to the USSR amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks); 11,400 aircraft and 1.75 million tons of food."

I did not dispute the possibility of Kalashnikov being influenced by Garands further development of the rotating bolt in auto loading firearms. Just how the Soviets got them. Browning used a rotating bolt in the Remington model 8 developed in 1906. It used a long recoil barrel system, also used in the infamous French Chauchat machine gun of WW1 (also used by the Polish Army) instead of a gas driven bolt carrier which is more closely what Garand brought to the development and Kalashnikov and his team brought to the AK.

Again, I'm sure the Soviets used lots of guns in the design if the AK. It also came to light that Kalashnikov had access to Hugo Schmiesser during the development process.

Yes the rotating bolt of WW2 era US small arms was developed by Garand and adapted to both the M1 rifle and M1 carbine. Just keeping up on the details for other folks who might get confused.
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:10 PM   #34
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Looking at the lend lease with the US and USSR for the Second World War, small arms weren't part of it.

From: World War II The War Against Germany And Italy, US Army Center Of Military History, page 158.

"In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease to the USSR amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks); 11,400 aircraft and 1.75 million tons of food."

I did not dispute the possibility of Kalashnikov being influenced by Garands further development of the rotating bolt in auto loading firearms. Just how the Soviets got them. Browning used a rotating bolt in the Remington model 8 developed in 1906. It used a long recoil barrel system, also used in the infamous French Chauchat machine gun of WW1 (also used by the Polish Army) instead of a gas driven bolt carrier which is more closely what Garand brought to the development and Kalashnikov and his team brought to the AK.

Again, I'm sure the Soviets used lots of guns in the design if the AK. It also came to light that Kalashnikov had access to Hugo Schmiesser during the development process.

Yes the rotating bolt of WW2 era US small arms was developed by Garand and adapted to both the M1 rifle and M1 carbine. Just keeping up on the details for other folks who might get confused.
It seems that you know what you're talking about.That's nice.The only thing I don't agree with in wha t you wrote is the possibility that the rotating bolt of the AK platform has been influenced by Garand.There is no evidence about it.The closest theory to the truth says that the AK was based on the stg44,the remington m8 and a third rifle(there is an open dispute about which one, but I can assure you that it is not a Garand)
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:29 PM   #35
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Doc. Overreaching again. Small arms were lend leased to the USSR. The quote you gave says nothing to dispute it. The numbers were modest, 130 thousand or more. I have personally seen a WW2 photo of Red Sailors aiming their Tommy guns in the Northern Front. The M1 carbines were supplied in small numbers. But how many does it take to study the design? There was also 1 (one) documented M1 Garand delivered to the USSR. Good chance it was the one studied and reported to the Technical Council of the State Defense Committee in 1943.

This is way off topic, but I know these waters, no pun intended. And Mark: I am not assured. You simply don't know.
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:01 PM   #36
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Right you are. We have wandered off course from the main discussion.

You are also correct that none of us was there to know exactly what they had their hands on.

I guess it is pretty irrelevant at this point to argue about procurement of rifles influential in the design. Just saying there are other designs out there pre-dating the Garand that would have also been widely available to the designers involved.

Based on Chauchat performance it is understandable why it may have been avoided as a design influence.

The only American small arms I could find documented in lend lease to the USSR during the war were the 1911a1 and Thompson submachine guns, from Great Britain. That was why avoided citing lend lease as a source for their acquisition if Garands and M1 Carbines. Not saying that they didn't gain access to those rifle, or their possible influence.

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Old 11-10-2013, 05:55 AM   #37
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The Polytech carbines (Legend) and rifles (Legend National Match) are reasonably accurate in my experience.

Marc Krebs has already done a lot of experimentation with various AK pattern rifles and carbines, most notably the SAIGA . He has noted that the VEPR rifles are pretty accurate to begin with. Generally, he performs some light machining of the barrel to true up mating faces and, more importantly, unitizes the gas block so that the barrel is as close to floated as its going to get.

The result would never out-shoot a bolt action rifle, but it's practical accuracy is about as good as it's going to get without spending an inordinate amount of time, and therefore money, to produce a reasonably accurate rifle. If you were interested in longer range shooting with an AK pattern rifle, I'd up the caliber to 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R, with a preference towards 7.62x51 since match grade ammunition is readily available in that chambering.

The trajectory of the 7.62x39 ammunition and 19th century sighting mechanism is what makes longer range shooting more difficult, not any inherent inaccuracy of the AK.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:30 AM   #38
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The Polytech carbines (Legend) and rifles (Legend National Match) are reasonably accurate in my experience.

Marc Krebs has already done a lot of experimentation with various AK pattern rifles and carbines, most notably the SAIGA . He has noted that the VEPR rifles are pretty accurate to begin with. Generally, he performs some light machining of the barrel to true up mating faces and, more importantly, unitizes the gas block so that the barrel is as close to floated as its going to get.

The result would never out-shoot a bolt action rifle, but it's practical accuracy is about as good as it's going to get without spending an inordinate amount of time, and therefore money, to produce a reasonably accurate rifle. If you were interested in longer range shooting with an AK pattern rifle, I'd up the caliber to 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R, with a preference towards 7.62x51 since match grade ammunition is readily available in that chambering.

The trajectory of the 7.62x39 ammunition and 19th century sighting mechanism is what makes longer range shooting more difficult, not any inherent inaccuracy of the AK.
Interesting opinion.But I'll tell you:If you want to start from a good AK platform, you should start from the Galil.In my modest opinion, it should be considered as the "natural evolution" of the AK platform.I have never understood why Izhmash has never tried to copy one of more features of this rifle.The sights, chambering, safety lever, gas tube are awesome!!!The rifle itself its much more accurate than any other AK pattern rifle and preserves the legendary reliability of the AK platform.

Isn't it sexy??
What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m! - AK & SKS Discussion
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:11 PM   #39
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Interesting opinion.But I'll tell you:If you want to start from a good AK platform, you should start from the Galil.In my modest opinion, it should be considered as the "natural evolution" of the AK platform.I have never understood why Izhmash has never tried to copy one of more features of this rifle.The sights, chambering, safety lever, gas tube are awesome!!!The rifle itself its much more accurate than any other AK pattern rifle and preserves the legendary reliability of the AK platform.

Isn't it sexy??
What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m! - AK & SKS Discussion
My guess, because its practical accuracy does not redeem its weight. Even the Finns have stopped making it.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:00 AM   #40
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Interesting opinion.But I'll tell you:If you want to start from a good AK platform, you should start from the Galil.In my modest opinion, it should be considered as the "natural evolution" of the AK platform.I have never understood why Izhmash has never tried to copy one of more features of this rifle.The sights, chambering, safety lever, gas tube are awesome!!!The rifle itself its much more accurate than any other AK pattern rifle and preserves the legendary reliability of the AK platform.

Isn't it sexy??
What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m! - AK & SKS Discussion
Well, some of the features of the rifle have been copied.

Folding stock and thumb safety lever:

http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SAM7SF.html

AR Sighting system:

http://www.tech-sights.com/ak.htm

Picatinny rail for optics, AR sighting system, push-button mag release

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12

There are a variety of last-round bolt-hold-open devices, too, the simplest being magazines that block the forward movement of the bolt after the last round is fired.

How much more accurate is your Galil than an Arsenal SLR-106? Have you shot both of them?

Anyway, yeah, I guess it's better than a stock AK of yore but I'm not sure what the Galil does that the AK doesn't do?
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