What's the REAL accuracy of an AK chambered in 7,62x39?300-400m! - Page 3
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:53 AM   #21
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I'm sure someone could get match grade barrels, and build blueprinted and trued actions, and fit the trunions as true as possible along with hand fitting parts and hone a light, predictable trigger.
It is remarkable that in 60 years nobody did exactly that. I read Saddam had a golden AK, seriously. Was it a great shooter, we might never know.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:01 AM   #22
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These were a spin off from the German Sub-Gun. Why would anyone spend time and money making a Sub-Gun designed for Urban warfare into a match rifle?
What next? A 1927 Thompson {Tommy Gun} Sub-Machine Gun converted for the 1,000 meter Camp Perry Shoots?

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Old 10-19-2013, 01:47 AM   #23
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These were a spin off from the German Sub-Gun. Why would anyone spend time and money making a Sub-Gun designed for Urban warfare into a match rifle?
What next? A 1927 Thompson {Tommy Gun} Sub-Machine Gun converted for the 1,000 meter Camp Perry Shoots?
Eh, let's see. Target shooting a 45ACP for 1 km would be a negatory. The Tommy was too expensive even in its day. The AK is pocket change. (Russian govt buys them at about $50 a piece, full auto of course) The original sturmgewehr was not a SMG, it fired a rifle cartridge. The AK action is more like Garand than the SG anyway.

To your question why make it a match rifle - evidently, no good reason. But other things have been built with no reason whatsoever. Desert Eagle 50 AE to name one.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:59 AM   #24
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An AK-47 is nothing like a Garand. What does a 50 AE handgun have to do with this? In Indiana where you largest predator is a Ground Hog that maybe the case. The 50 AE is very useful here in the Rockies. The 8MM Kurtz like the 7.62X39 was a hybred. If you will check the STG-44 was listed by the Nazis as a Machine Pistol. They like Thompson-Center can call any cartridge a handgun round. There are no rules that describe handgun ammo is being proprietary to one firearm.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=german+assault+rifle+ww2&FORM=VIRE1#view= detail&mid=C54EFF53CB6BC80B8785C54EFF53CB6BC80B878 5

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Old 10-19-2013, 02:43 AM   #25
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The AK system has a rotating bolt pioneered by Garand. The STG was a rifle, because it had a shoulder stock, a long barrel, and an intermediate rifle cartridge. I can't speak for the Nazis you refer to, or for T/C. A handgun round is a handgun round. The difference is real. Everyone knows in Indiana, because rifle cartridges are not allowed for hunting.

Edit. The last sentence was not productive. I deleted it. No offense Nitestalker. P.S. Our groundhogs are HUGE.

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Old 10-19-2013, 03:37 AM   #26
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Hmm. Let's see if we can untie some of the knots that are developing into a tangle.

The Germans did develop a rifle as a response to the Garand. It was an 8x57mm Gewehr 43. Translated to "Rifle model 43". It was a full sized semi-auto rifle firing a full sized battle rifle cartridge.

The German military commanders from the Russian Front had seen the effectiveness of the Russian submachine guns used in high volume, but also their limitations. They knew that the amount if lighter ammo that a soldier could carry was greater. They knew that the portability of the weapons was well suited to closer fighting being done in towns and cities. They also saw that the sub machine gun was limited in power by the pistol rounds that were used. They wanted a an intermediate cartridge that had more power than a pistol round, less recoil, weight and bulk than a battle rifle cartridge. They wanted capacity and magazine change ability like a sub gun, but better range and barrier penetration. They proposed the idea to Hitler for an Assault Rifle or in German translation Sturm Gewehr (storm rifle). Hitler was against a new rifle. They developed the idea anyway under his nose by calling the development project a pistol. Once it was finally developed and issued without Hitlers knowledge, Hitler did find out and the rifle was having good success and the Sturm Gewehr 44 was allowed to be produced. Bit a bit too late to appear in great volume, or change the tide if the war.

It is indeed an assault rifle that was select fire and used a cartridge in between a battle rifle cartridge and a pistol cartridge like a SMG. The cartridge was a short version of the 8x57 Mauser round literally called the 8mm short or 8mm Kurtz. An 8x33mm bottle necked cartridge.

The Russians were also trying to develop a weapon along the same performance criteria. The AK 47 was developed out if this program along with the short 7.62x39 mm cartridge. The AK has a similar rotating bolt like the M1 Garand but it many other features are shared.

So the STG44 and Avtomat Kalasnikova 47 are both rifles. Short rifles, or intermediate rifles. The MP38, MP40, and PPSh, Thompson, the M3 grease gun, Sten, Sterling, etc. are sub machine guns based on their use of pistol cartridges. Some were termed machine pistols by their military commands.

Hope that helps clear up some confusion.

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Old 10-31-2013, 05:20 PM   #27
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The AK system has a rotating bolt pioneered by Garand. The STG was a rifle, because it had a shoulder stock, a long barrel, and an intermediate rifle cartridge. I can't speak for the Nazis you refer to, or for T/C. A handgun round is a handgun round. The difference is real. Everyone knows in Indiana, because rifle cartridges are not allowed for hunting.

Edit. The last sentence was not productive. I deleted it. No offense Nitestalker. P.S. Our groundhogs are HUGE.
The garand has nothing to do with the ak, I'm sorry dude.Kalashnikov based the ak on 3 rifles, neither one of them is the M1.
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:01 PM   #28
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The garand has nothing to do with the ak, I'm sorry dude.Kalashnikov based the ak on 3 rifles, neither one of them is the M1.
which one of those other rifles, in your opinion, had the rotary cam action locking bolt?
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:13 PM   #29
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which one of those other rifles, in your opinion, had the rotary cam action locking bolt?
1)Kalashnikov had a whole inventary of soviet prototypes while designing the ak, including some with rotating bolt.So..7-13 rifles?Don't ask me to name them, I can't right now, not without doing the proper researches2)If you pioneer a design, it doesn't necessary mean that anybody will copy it to build a new weapon.Kalashnikov didn't built the ak from the scratch(withiut copzing anything),but he did it with his own ideas(a combinantion of of good choices)
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #30
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1)Kalashnikov had a whole inventary of soviet prototypes while designing the ak, including some with rotating bolt.So..7-13 rifles?Don't ask me to name them, I can't right now, not without doing the proper researches2)If you pioneer a design, it doesn't necessary mean that anybody will copy it to build a new weapon.Kalashnikov didn't built the ak from the scratch(withiut copzing anything),but he did it with his own ideas(a combinantion of of good choices)
Okay, no problem. The M1 was supplied to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease Act of Congress. It was studied and reported to the state committee (at the same meeting in 1943 where the StG prototype was also reported) The results of those studies were made available to several competing designers, among them Kalashnikov. Copied is not the word I would use. He incorporated what he liked from the foreign designs, as all small arms engineers have done since times immemorial. The Soviets used to never admit lifting ideas from the adversary, even when it was completely normal course of business. (Partly because of the notorious cases of reverse engineering, such as the TU4 long range bomber, or stealing, such as the space shuttle Buran)
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