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Old 06-03-2013, 04:51 PM   #11
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The accuracy standard for a Bulgarian or Russian AK carbine is 4 MOA at 100 meters.

The accuracy standard for a Colt M4 carbine is 4 MOA at 100 yards.

Yes, AR's are typically more accurate than AK's. That has more to do with triggers, ergonomics, and sighting mechanism. The primary difference is the sighting mechanism. If you put an Aimpoint on either weapon and use decent ammunition, accuracy differences are negligible.

For most people, the post and peep or ghost ring are easier to achieve a given level of accuracy with than a post and notch.

US Army ordnance, or more specifically the head of the review board, didn't want the AR. Like any new weapon, the rifle had some teething troubles and the General in charge of the board, Maxwell Taylor I think but can't recall now, was a traditionalist and just didn't like it. An early model AR barrel failed in testing and the bullet exited the barrel. Not a good thing for any rifle. An Air Force General named Curtis LeMay wanted the rifle for Air Force Security after some informal testing. Incidentally, SECDEF McNamara ordered that the AR-15, AK-47, and M-14 rifles all be tested by the Army.

McNamara ordered the US Army to field the rifle based on "scientific" analysis by the Wiz Kids and rejected the results of US Army testing that found the AR-15 and AK-47 unsuitable for service. McNamara was a bean counter. He noted that the cost of fielding the M14 did not seem to provide a good trade-off, given the number of cartridges fired to achieve a "kill".

Even though the AR-15 turned out to be a good idea, McNamara also rejected some of the changes that the Army wanted, on grounds of cost. Not chrome lining the bore and chamber turned out to be a bad idea. McNamara eventually lost that decision and M-16 barrels and chambers are chrome lined.

After the AR-15 (M-16) was fielded and the dumb weapon and ammunition cost cutting measures were nixed that caused problems with the rifle, it was well-liked by the military and it's been around ever since.

Many tens of millions of dollars have been wasted to replace the AR-15 and the military has rejected every attempt to do so. An order hasn't been issued to field a new rifle or carbine, so it's still the primary individual weapon in all services even though newer/faster/better/more reliable weapons have also been fielded. The newer/faster/better/more reliable weapons have also been proprietary design/more expensive/heavier without a great deal of demonstrable improvement in any area except reliability.

Are there more reliable weapons than the AR? Sure, but it's mostly a question of operator training and maintenance. If you maintain the weapon, use working magazines, and use quality ammunition it is very reliable. If you don't, expect problems. Damaged or poor quality magazines, springs, and ammo can screw up any weapon and are a major factor in weapon reliability.

Our weapons were designed to be used by trained riflemen who take care of their equipment. Our enemies' weapons were designed to be used by conscripts who can read or write their own names in their own language.

Western individual weapon design philosophy has always centered around accuracy, ergonomics, and reduced cost. The most accurate and least costly rifle probably won't be the most reliable.

Eastern individual weapon design philosophy has always centered around reliability and durability, although Eastern individual weapons are plenty accurate for the intended use. The most reliable and most durable rifle probably won't be the most accurate or ergonomic.

The AK can run without lubrication. The AR requires lubrication or it won't run. If you lubricate it properly, it will continue to function reliably until parts start breaking.

The cheap stainless steel springs that military weapons and magazines have in them cause problems. The chrome silicon springs that you can purchase on the aftermarket will continue to function long after you have to replace the barrel several times. Apart from properly lubricating the weapon, the chrome silicon springs are the greatest reliability upgrade that you can make on an AR.

BTW, I've never seen anyone but an armorer start tearing a rifle down in the Navy. I can't say what the Army or Marine Corps would find acceptable for an infantry soldier to do to his rifle, but playing with the trigger mechanism is probably not permitted. For that matter, I'd bet any comparable activity in a Communist army would be the preserve of a unit armorer.

If your rifle is messed up, you turn it in and get issued a new one. If an armorer can fix it, it will be re-issued. If not, the military buys a new rifle.
That was very informative, thank you very much. I am gonna wait until I find the perfect one and do more research. I have a feeling the prices will keep falling and by November prices will be right.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:59 PM   #12
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What kind of AK do you really want?

All AK's that haven't been tricked out are "basic" rifles.

If you want a heavy AK, get a milled receiver carbine.

If you want a light AK, get a stamped receiver carbine.

If you want a more accurate AK capable of covering the same distances that a typical AR can, get a AK-74. Magazines are a little more expensive, but the ammunition is cheaper.

Irrespective of which AK you select, get quality steel Com-bloc magazines or Bulgarian waffle pattern steel-reinforced polymer magazines.

Apart from custom builds, like Krebs or Rifle Dynamics, there's no notable accuracy or durability difference except for the AK-74's which are a little more accurate and capable of accuracy at distance with a reasonable expectation of hitting the target with standard iron sights.

A properly built AK of either variety should function as intended every time, as Anna pointed out, and is more economical to own and operate than an AR pattern carbine typically is. High quality AK's, like Arsenal, are about the same price as a quality AR, like Colt or BCM or DD, is now. Bulgarian AK magazines are considerably more expensive than MagPul PMAG's, but prices for brass cased 556 are so much more than steel cased Russian 762 or 545 that it doesn't take much shooting for the cost of the Bulgarian AK and Bulgarian magazines to get covered.
Can you tell me a little bit about the AK 74
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:30 PM   #13
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If you are budget minded Yugo M70 hands down. Best value AK out there.

Now, if cost isn't an issue go for an Arsenal. They are pretty much the standard for AK quality.

For a few hundred more than an Arsenal you can get a Krebs, can't get better than that.

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Old 06-03-2013, 06:13 PM   #14
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A VEPR is nice, no?

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Old 06-04-2013, 04:10 AM   #15
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A VEPR is nice, no?
Very nice. Most accurate AK on the market. It's the only AK that has a,chrome lined barrel. Also has a better gas system. The weight is stretched over the rifle while still remaining central. The machining is also beautiful. It's kind of like a colt, you know it will do what it needs to when it has to but it's almost too darn good lookin to shot
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:58 PM   #16
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Very nice. Most accurate AK on the market. It's the only AK that has a,chrome lined barrel. Also has a better gas system. The weight is stretched over the rifle while still remaining central. The machining is also beautiful. It's kind of like a colt, you know it will do what it needs to when it has to but it's almost too darn good lookin to shot
All of the AK variants I've seen have had chromed barrels, except the Yugoslav versions. What is different about a VEPR gas system? Thought they still used a piston that is attached to the carrier like all the others.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:43 AM   #17
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All of the AK variants I've seen have had chromed barrels, except the Yugoslav versions. What is different about a VEPR gas system? Thought they still used a piston that is attached to the carrier like all the others.
They do but this one is "1-1.5 longer and the cut out of the piston is different. Have you ever fired a vepr
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:48 AM   #18
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They do but this one is "1-1.5 longer and the cut out of the piston is different. Have you ever fired a vepr
Nope, that's why I asked.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:36 AM   #19
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Can you tell me a little bit about the AK 74
The AK-74 variant of the AKM design was designed in response to what Russian observers reported from Viet Nam regarding the effectiveness of the M-16 rifle.

The military strategists and tacticians came to understand the value of giving individual soldiers a lighter, faster, less powerful cartridge to use. The Americans were always enamored with the rifle and the ideals of having trained riflemen, but the Russians were a little more practical.

The high velocity and resultant flatter trajectory, light weight weapon, and light weight magazines and ammunition were ideal for a close range combat weapon.

Lots of firefights in Viet Nam ended because the VC or NVA ran out of ammunition because they could not carry a loadout equivalent to what the American soldiers were carrying. The 7.62MMx39MM ammunition and steel AK magazines are significantly heavier than the 5.56MMx45MM ammunition and aluminum AR magazines. For a given weight, you can carry more 5.56MM or 5.45MM ammunition and magazines.

Let's be real about one thing, in any firefight there's going to be a lot of missing. It could be because you can't see the target and you're just firing in the general direction of the target in hopes of keeping him from moving or shooting back at you, you might have to shoot from a less than ideal position that isn't stable, or you're a poor marksman. Irrespective of what the reason is, misses happen in real gunfights involving highly trained marksmen.

So, the question becomes; How expensive in terms of weight and capability do you want each of those misses to be? With a lighter weapon, lighter ammunition, and lighter magazines, you can afford more misses because you can and will carry more magazines and ammunition. The ammunition is less expensive in terms of manufacturing and shipment costs and you can resupply your soldiers with more of other things that they need.

The 5.45MMx39MM cartridges that the AK-74 uses are ever so slightly less powerful than the SS109 cartridges that the M-16 and M-4 carbines currently use. The terminal ballistics of the cartridges is nearly identical.

The weight of a loaded PMAG AR-15 magazine and a loaded Bulgarian steel reinforced polymer AK-74 magazine, both containing 30 cartridges, is about equal and you're looking at about 1 pound of weight either way.

How much better armed would you be with a AK-47 or AKM vs a AK-74?

Mikhail Kalashnikov would say that the AK-74's cartridge was a mistake but he obviously isn't very well versed on modern infantry tactics, either. Soldiers miss, there are reasons to fire your weapon that won't directly cause casualties to the enemy such as suppressive fire, and there's a limit to what a man of a given size can carry and use.

Having a battle rifle to shoot at someone less than 100 yards away is kinda a waste of power. If you hit someone in the center of the chest at 100 yards with a 5.56MM or 5.45MM cartridge they'll be just as dead as they would be if you shot them with 7.62MMx51MM or 7.62MMx54R.

As a civilian, I believe it to be highly unlikely that I'll ever shoot someone at 50 yards let alone several hundred yards where using heavier caliber ammunition makes more sense. I prefer the lighter caliber ammunition because it's cheaper, smaller, and not as heavy. You can easily stick a spare magazine in your pocket if you think you'll need it, and the weapons that chamber those cartridges are also lighter.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:02 AM   #20
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Yall ever heard of an an-94....now that would be the AK to have. Has a double tap system and the barrel eats up recoil.

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