When does a rifle become obsolete??? - Page 7
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:02 AM   #61
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hmm, how civil of you.

Btw, if you get the boot from the mods, it was me that reported you.

Have a nice day.
roflmao!!!!!!:d
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:06 AM   #62
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Back on topic.

What's considered obsolete is determined by who you ask. If you asked me, I'd tell you that anything still being used today for any purpose is not completely obsolete. Now, that doesn't mean I'd take my 1895 Nagant (something many consider to be obsolete, especially the ammo despite the fact that the designs for both were ahead of their time) to war, but I still shoot it at the range. It would also be a decent gun for short range hunting too. (squirrel, rabbit, snake, ect) The point is, it still has it's uses.

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Old 02-09-2014, 02:11 AM   #63
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Back on topic.

What's considered obsolete is determined by who you ask. If you asked me, I'd tell you that anything still being used today for any purpose is not completely obsolete. Now, that doesn't mean I'd take my 1895 Nagant (something many consider to be obsolete, especially the ammo despite the fact that the designs for both were ahead of their time) to war, but I still shoot it at the range. It would also be a decent gun for short range hunting too. (squirrel, rabbit, snake, ect) The point is, it still has it's uses.
i'm sorry, but your Mosin Nagant revolver is obsolete TWW!

but it's still a cool pistol. being obsolete doesn't mean they aren't still cool to own and shoot though.

something may be obsolete for one purpose, but still quite viable for other purposes.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:19 AM   #64
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i'm sorry, but your Mosin Nagant revolver is obsolete TWW!

but it's still a cool pistol. being obsolete doesn't mean they aren't still cool to own and shoot though.

something may be obsolete for one purpose, but still quite viable for other purposes.
Exactly!

As for the Nagant, how many revolvers made today have a sliding cylinder and ammo to go with it designed to create a gas seal and increase velocity? I'd say that was pretty dang sophisticated.

You also have the Webley-Fosbery semi auto revolvers. I believe that design basically made the gun a double action revolver, with a single action trigger.

They should have combined the two designs!!!
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:22 AM   #65
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Exactly!

As for the Nagant, how many revolvers made today have a sliding cylinder and ammo to go with it designed to create a gas seal and increase velocity? I'd say that was pretty dang sophisticated.

You also have the Webley-Fosbery semi auto revolvers.

They should have combined the two designs!!!
it was in 1895! this is 2014! times have changed.

but your pistol is still cool even though it's outdated. i'd buy one if one comes along at the right price though.
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Old 02-09-2014, 03:25 AM   #66
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Jpattersonnh, It is very difficult to explain the function of the Mauser action to people who are not familiar with them. I think you did a fine job with your explanation.

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Old 02-09-2014, 02:09 PM   #67
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I think this thread went way off topic.

I can only reiterate the difference between obsolescent and obsolete.

Nothing is ever obsolete that if given to you for free you would still derive combat power from w/ a in reasonable return for your effort to field it (training effort, maintenance, carry the weight, buying the ammo etc).

If it is lacking modern features and would not be produced new like that, yet you can still derive reasonable combat power from it it is called obsolescent, not obsolete.

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Old 02-09-2014, 05:38 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by texaswoodworker View Post
Exactly!

As for the Nagant, how many revolvers made today have a sliding cylinder and ammo to go with it designed to create a gas seal and increase velocity? I'd say that was pretty dang sophisticated.

You also have the Webley-Fosbery semi auto revolvers. I believe that design basically made the gun a double action revolver, with a single action trigger.

They should have combined the two designs!!!

My take on it? Something becomes obsolete when it no longer is viable or cost effective to produce it..

While neat, I think the revolver tech came along to late... With auto-loading pistols already being designed or produced, it just took more time/money than it was worth to produce them.

Take the M95.. Why put the extra expense into producing a revolver and special ammo to get a few more FPS? When a Auto-loader does it by design and using conventional ammo (I know the M95 pre-dates many Auto-loading designs, but not by much... )

or the Webley Auto-revolver, as far as I know they only made a handful of them, then there was a company called Mateba who started to manufacture Auto-revolvers but it eventually went under.. Not many people wanted to spend $3,000 for a revolver when a $500 auto-loading pistol does the same thing.

Or my beloved Medusa.. Everyone Ive shown it to thinks it the neatest gun ever but for a "Gun that was going to revolutionize the industry" It has become little more than a footnote in history.
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:58 PM   #69
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Default Obsolete or obsolescent

The most interesting aswers to my initial question was "It all depends on how you're going to use it" and "It may be obsolete, but it doesn't mean that you can't get some combat power from it".

As I wrote in previous posts...there are several rifles that in good hands can make a substantial difference.Let's take in consideration the G3, M14 and the FAL.Both are condired to be bulky, heavy and with a relatively strong perceived recoil(not recommended for full auto).They would rather not be used by any user who was trained to use something lighter and more controlallable as the M16 or the M4.They would not be accepted, at least not as "standard service weapons" by the majority of them.
Let's be honest:These rifle are still great and effective marksman rifles.And all of them can be heavily updated and reconfigured to adapt them to a particular task.Whoever has used them in combat of have just practiced accurate shooting(800m/880 yds +) knows what I'm talking about.

The same theory might be applied to the whole AK platform.They say it is obsolete.Let's think about it.
Is its production cost effective?Yes it is.The average cost per unit ranges from 50-75$ per unit.
Is it effective on the field?The accuracy is acceptable, the rifle is reliable, the stopping, penetration, killing/wounding power is more that acceptable-it is still pretty effective if compared to more modern weapons
Can it accept upgrades and accessories?Hell yeah!There are several options that can be applied even to the oldest AKs(like a 1959 AKM).You can mount almost everything on it).in some cases, they modern AK rifles has even integrated rail system and more comfortable(user-friendly) fire-selectors(thumb-activated).

So how can you define as obsolete/obsolescent a rifle that is still extremely effective on the field and can compete under many aspects with more modern firearms?
Another comparison that can be made is the MP5 vs. UMP.The UMP is considered to be the successor of the MP5, especially in terms of production costs(An average MP5 costs 900$!!!) and the materials used.But what about the quality and the performance?The MP5 is still superior to it...even if it is "turning" 50.Anyone who shot both weapons(especially on the field) will agree with this.The main advantages of the UMP over the MP5 are the materials used, the integrated picatinny rails and the multicaliber availability.
But...Guess what?You can modify an MP5 to achieve a similar result(e.g. I've seen MP5 with integrated railsystem(welded on the receiver...a piece of cake, very well made).

So again...why don't you simply upgrade an "already-winning-horse" instead of trying to "reinvent the whole thing"?In my personal opinion, all the mentioned platforms still haven't reached their full potential...

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Old 02-09-2014, 08:23 PM   #70
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When you can't get ammo for it or shoot it, or use it as a club its obsolete.

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