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Old 10-08-2012, 03:59 PM   #11
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My question is that since 1966 when mil spec came to be , nothing else out there has gotten better over time than mil spec ?

Hows this spec list fare ?


Lower: These lowers are made using the most advanced aerospace manufacturing technology to produce the industries finest, forged Mil-Spec lowers.
These forged lowers are quality made using material is 7075-T6 and are marked "CAL MULTI" to accommodate most builds. Finish is Black Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-8625 Type 3 class 2.

Trigger: Features black oxide coated, coiled spring pins for the bolt catch, and black oxide coated hammer and trigger springs.

Includes:


Trigger

Trigger Spring

Hammer

Hammer Spring

A2 Grip

Buffer Retainer Pin

Buffer Retainer Spring

Trigger Guard

Safety Selector

Bolt Catch Spring

Detent Spring

Bolt Catch Plunger

Bolt Catch

Disconnecter

Disconnecter Spring

Magazine Catch Spring

Bolt Catch Roll Pin

Magazine Release Button

Magazine Catch

Pivot Pin

Selector Spring

Safety Selector Detent

Rear Take Down Pin

Takedown Pin Detent

Details
Parts are 100% made in USA!

Stock:M4-style stock, 6-position milspec diameter 7076 T6 Aluminum buffer tube with Dry film lube coating inside, buffer spring, buffer, latch plate, and castle nut.

Barrel: A proprietary blend of Hammer forged chrome molly vanadium made by FN that is referred to as "Machine Gun Steel" by virtue of its use in FN's M249 and M240 weapons. The hammer forging process work hardens the steel, making it more durable. In addition, the chrome process for the bore allows for a lining almost twice as thick as a standard M16 for enhanced durability. Chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, M4 barrel extension, and a Mid-length gas system. A2 style profile barrel is Mil-spec phosphate coated, High Pressure tested and Magnetic Particle inspected. Barrel is finished off with an F-marked front sight post with sling swivel, standard handguards and an optional pinned and welded A2 flash hider. 14.7" barrel allows for the A2 flash hider to bring the barrel to legal length.

Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is made to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized black for durability. Featuring machined T marks, and a mil-spec finish. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA by a mil-spec manufacturer,

Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside,

Each upper is assembled to order with care, and test fired.

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Old 10-08-2012, 04:27 PM   #12
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PSA makes decent stuff but I think their fit and finish could use work. For just farting around and going to the range and hunting, I think they're good. I wouldn't have one as a work gun. If you have a friend that has one, go shoot it. It's up to you on what you like and what you'll use it for.

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Old 10-08-2012, 05:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoovco View Post
PSA makes decent stuff but I think their fit and finish could use work. For just farting around and going to the range and hunting, I think they're good. I wouldn't have one as a work gun. If you have a friend that has one, go shoot it. It's up to you on what you like and what you'll use it for.
Dont understand what you mean by fit and finish could use work ? sloppy fit or bad finish ?
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #14
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The M4 Chart?

That chart was pretty much developed mostly by one guy (rob_s) over at another forum that will remain nameless. There was some additional information that was added from other sourced forum members, but none of them were doing any scientific research grants or had been annointed The Gods of the Almighty AR. That forum is notorious for their bias towards about 4 or 5 brands. Magically those brands are represented on the list. Weird.

They were just people, and as people tend to do, they have bias. There are LITERALLY 100,000 threads referencing this stupid chart all over the web with TONS of examples from people that bought the lowly brand "x" that never deserved to be let off the assembly line, but yet the weapons are working fine for them and have since day one.

This whole belief that even a hard level used is going to be running and gunning with enough force to have their barrels melt down or their non magical CNC machined, totally customized bolt carrier group erupt into a shower of liquid hot magna forever scaring the user is completely ridiculous to me.

I seen a lot of AR's come through the shop. Some of them still in brand new condition that had slight problems and some that came in after thousands of rounds and looked like they were towed behind a truck on the Paris to Dakar rally that just needed a new gas tube and some minor adjustments.

I have seen expensive guns not work and I have seen inexpensive guns run like a champ.

Part of what makes a good gun is knowing enough about it to know what to check when you are cleaning it after use.

Everything mechanical can break or become worn, which is why every serious 3 gun competitor has a whole tool box full of spare parts with them every match inspite of the fact they spend $5000 on their set up.

JD

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Old 10-08-2012, 07:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoovco View Post
Here's a spreadsheet thing detailing some mil spec features to look for in a rifle.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5

Here's the document stating mil spec standards:

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-B/download.php?spec=MIL-B-11595E.014406.PDF

Things like shot peening, properly staking a gas key, and MPI cost more ... Thus a higher price. You're not paying for just a name.
So lets review the Chart ..... 1 more time

1. Mil Spec means Mil Spec ... NOTHING MORE! It neither defines quality nor craftsmanship in any way. All it states is that an item meets Military Specified standards ... THAT'S IT!

2. an MPI Bolt: great to have ... but means absolutely nothing more than that a bolt was inspected! Guess what happens to bolts that do not pass inspection?

3. M16 Bolt Carrier: sure is nice to have one ... totally unnecessary unless you actually have a NFA licesnes, BTAFE approved full auto rifle. No one ... and I mean NO ONE ... can run their semi auto AR trigger hard enough to wear out a semi auto receiver

4. Properly Staked gas key: here is an item which is blatantly reported incorrect. My STAG AR bolt carrier came from STAG properly staked. I guess the fellow that put the information together for the Chart missed that?

5. Barrel: fan-effing-tastic if ou have yourself a Mil Spec barrel ... kudos! Now go tell that to jonM who just built an absolute TACK DRIVER of an AR without a Mil Spec barrel ..... I guess his AR is a POS!

6. HPT and MPI of Barrel: Just as with the BCG ... it is a test and implies nothing more than whether the barrel has passed or not.

7. 5.56 Chamber: How does this spec translate into quality?

8. 1:7 rifle twist: again, what does rifle twist have to do with quality? It is a preference ... for the Military ... for what they intend to use an M4 for. it has absilutely ZERO bearing on what a civilian will prefer ... or choose to use their AR for.

9. "F" height front sight base: and this spec translates to quality how? What do I want an F height front sight for? If anything I would prefer a flip up sight before a fixed sight. IMHO, this is a poor spec chosen by the Military ... feel free to jump off the bridge with them if you like

10. Taper pins at FSB: see position #9

11. Parkerizing under FSB: again, how does this translate into a better quality AR over another. If your AR barrel is surface rusting beneath it's FSB i would venture to guess that you are not maintaining your weapon properly ... see owners manual on how to do so.

12. Dbl heat shield handguards: you mean to say that the $9 palstic clam shells spec'd by the Military are the end all be all of handguards? Damn, I could have some some serious chowder by not buying that Sampson free float quad rail

13. Staked castle nut: I would prefer that the castle nut that comes on my AR not be staked ... it makes it a hell of a lot easier to back it off so I can put on a better stock than the standard A2 or M4 profile stock. But than again, it wouldn't be Mil Spec so I guess it's a POS too.


So please, once again I ask you, can you quantify your claims that DD rifles are better than "most AR manufacturers" without referencing some worthless compilation of nearly useless specifications?
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:45 PM   #16
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I've shot nice stuff and I've shot other not as nice stuff. How about the fact that the rifles were just smoother, functioned better, and shot more accurately? I'm not on some bandwagon, dude. I've used DD, BCM, DSA, PSA, CMMG, and MEGA. Buy a DSA or PSA upper and then compare it to a DD or BCM upper. I know what one I would want. Settle down dude.

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Old 10-08-2012, 07:49 PM   #17
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I do believe he was asking some specific questions concerning your posted opinion as fact above.

I like the fact the owner of BCM has a criminal record, that's reassuring. Along with the fact that he filed for Chapter 11 on a previous business that may or may not have had anything to do with founding BCM. And they have only been in business since 2003, but SOMEHOW are the end all, beat all in the world of AR's.

Meanwhile Yankee Hill Machine has been building AR's and parts since the 80's and currently doesn't have any Better Business Bureau complaints filed against them.

BCM? Not so much.

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Old 10-08-2012, 07:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoovco View Post
I've shot nice stuff and I've shot other not as nice stuff. How about the fact that the rifles were just smoother, functioned better, and shot more accurately? I'm not on some bandwagon, dude. I've used DD, BCM, DSA, PSA, CMMG, and MEGA. Buy a DSA or PSA upper and then compare it to a DD or BCM upper. I know what one I would want. Settle down dude.
So why not do a head to head scientific comparison and share the info with members here? We are all hear to learn ... stumping "the Cart" isn't going to get you much cred here ... a well thought out and executed comparison and review would.


and folks here would be greatly appreciative ... the choice is yours
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:34 PM   #19
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Couldnt agree more , Mil Spec is always misconstrued as the best or better than . Mil-Spec is no more than what the military asked for in a rifle up to their specifications. This doesnt make it any more accurate, stronger, or " Better " than anything else on the market. MPI and HPT spec is just that its either pass or fail , Yes Im sure there are companies out there that dont do this . Is it needed ? Who knows . All my barrels are Mil Spec except one and in all honesty its no lesser accurate than the others . If you believe Mil-Spec is better than non mil spec thats your choice . Now when you get into companies that guarantee accuracy thats something different and most all of those will not be Mil-Spec barrels .. Mil Spec does not guarantee accuracy , fit, finish except that its up to the standards that the military contracted . I know of a few mil spec barrels that are just barely capable of 2" MOA and others that shoot .5" MOA . Its kinda of a toss up the way I look at it . Personally I would rather have all my barrels in a 1:9 , This barrell will simply shoot any gr ammo thru it very decently

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Old 10-08-2012, 08:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
I do believe he was asking some specific questions concerning your posted opinion as fact above.

I like the fact the owner of BCM has a criminal record, that's reassuring. Along with the fact that he filed for Chapter 11 on a previous business that may or may not have had anything to do with founding BCM. And they have only been in business since 2003, but SOMEHOW are the end all, beat all in the world of AR's.

Meanwhile Yankee Hill Machine has been building AR's and parts since the 80's and currently doesn't have any Better Business Bureau complaints filed against them.

BCM? Not so much.
I wont hold this against people , people fall under hard times and also do stupid things , we all learn from mistakes and hope that they dont revert back to those things . But to call out and say BCM is better than brand X ? I dont fall for that BS . Whats to hide with who makes their barrels ? Is it really that big of secret ? I mean I dont see many of them shoot sub MOA anyway . My buddy has one and has told me its not any better constructed , built or more accurate than the DTI he owns . I have to believe this it was his hard earned money he spent to call that out .
Best bang for the buck out there right now is PSA stuff , I would never say its better than brand X ,why because its just another black rifle with another name on the side , Hell they use FN for their standard barrels and Wilson for their stainless barrels so they must be proud of who they use or they would keep it under wraps to . Still doesnt make it any better than the DPMS down the road IMO .
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