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Old 09-07-2014, 05:36 PM   #31
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I'm not familiar with the Lee Enfield and would have to see this phenomenon for myself to accept that any shot group could be tighter at distance than it is at closer ranges... But I do agree that MOA at distance is far more than simple geometry.

Theoretically, given perfect conditions, consistent trigger pull, consistent POA, and a consistent shooter, any rifle is mechanically capable achieving the MOA geometry out to the limits of its cartridge performance but both nature and the human condition have a knack for disrupting consistency.

The target I posted above is good example of this.

I post at 100, 200, and 300 with this rifle and I know that regardless of the what the wind flags are doing, I can consistently put rounds inside the 1" bull at 200 yards because the 62 Grain Federal green tips I'm shooting have the mass and speed to overcome outside factors at this distance.

...theoretically, I should be able to engage the 300 hard target and deliver "sub" 2" groups... And actually did "once"... But the conditions were perfect and I was on my game.

A five to ten mph cross breeze acting on a 62 gr round at 300 can wreak havoc on a shot group.


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Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
The problem with all that is it's theory which is why I never mentioned it. Theoretically a rifle that shoots 1MOA will shoot about 1" groups at 100 yards and 2" groups at 200 yards, but again that is in theory. The problem is there are a lot more variables when actually shooting at different distances. Your scope or iron sights might hit on a bullseye or deer perfectly at 100 yards and allow you to shoot great groups. At 200 yards your cross hairs or front sight might completely cover a target and your groups will really open up as result because you are no longer aiming for a specific spot.

I'm bringing this up because far to many people assume they can shoot 3" groups at 300 yards because they can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. The two are not the same and the only way anyone can know what size groups they shoot at 300 yards is to shot groups at 300 yards.

In addition barrel harmonics are also a factor. It is actually possible for a rifle to shoot tighter groups at a distance than up close. Lee Enfields are famous for that. Barrel twist and bullet weight are also important. A barrel might shoot great groups up close but the bullet can become unstable at a distance because it doesn't have enough spin. Plus there is wind and so on.

Again, the only way anyone can know what their gun will shoot at different distance is to shoot at those distances.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
I'm not familiar with the Lee Enfield and would have to see this phenomenon for myself to accept that any shot group could be tighter at distance than it is at closer ranges... But I do agree that MOA at distance is far more than simple geometry.

Theoretically, given perfect conditions, consistent trigger pull, consistent POA, and a consistent shooter, any rifle is mechanically capable achieving the MOA geometry out to the limits of its cartridge performance but both nature and the human condition have a knack for disrupting consistency.

The target I posted above is good example of this.

I post at 100, 200, and 300 with this rifle and I know that regardless of the what the wind flags are doing, I can consistently put rounds inside the 1" bull at 200 yards because the 62 Grain Federal green tips I'm shooting have the mass and speed to overcome outside factors at this distance.

...theoretically, I should be able to engage the 300 hard target and deliver "sub" 2" groups... And actually did "once"... But the conditions were perfect and I was on my game.

A five to ten mph cross breeze acting on a 62 gr round at 300 can wreak havoc on a shot group.
They first figured that out about the .303's in the 20's so them shooting better at a distance is nothing new. Best I recall the bullet path looks like a rainbow and there is variation between the heights of the individual bullet paths due to variation in speed that results from variation in powder and bullet weight (very small variations). And that variation is present in all guns it's just that the variation is very slight in a very accurate rifle. Enfields are set up so that the harmonics in the barrel actually elevate the path of a slower moving bullet. The barrel is rising as the bullet exits and it rises slightly more on a slower moving bullet because it takes slightly longer to exit. That slower moving bullet is going arc higher but then "fall" quicker than a faster moving bullet. At a certain point the path of that slower moving bullet is going to intersect the path of the faster moving bullet. At that point you get a better group. That point is generally around 400 yards on No.4's.
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