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Old 01-04-2009, 08:31 PM   #21
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Some of the crap you say sounds like you've learned a good portion of your knowledge from bad action movies.
Yes, from movies. Not current PD doctrine at all.

DCT Active Shooter Response, Nov 2007. I'm on point in that picture.


Second from the left in this picture. Same class.


DCT - NM DPS SWAT Basic Skills course, Feb 2006.

ETA: I just got off the phone with MY SWAT instructor in New Mexico and his exact words were:

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We moved away from shotguns for several reasons. Intermediate barrier penetration issues, inability to account for wayward pellets and the inherent accuracy of rifles over shotguns in hostage situations.
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What is it that you do for work, anyway?
I have two jobs. One in the civilian market and one at a large .mil facility in Colorado. And yes, its supervising live fire training and no, its not marksmanship 101. Anyhow, since we've wandered into ad hominem territory. I'll simply just nod and walk away.
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:40 PM   #22
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Sorry, double tap.

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Old 01-04-2009, 11:34 PM   #23
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Shotguns are preferrably used for breaching duties, and breaching duties only. They are still used for other duties in a breach team, but it's better just to swap out for your pistol once you clear that first door (easier to manuver a sidearm around your battle buddies versus a shotgun).

When stacking up and moving into a structure, a shotgun is clumsy for CQC. The muzzle blast, combined with the motion required to jack the slide back and forth can cause big problems (the more motions/operations required to fire a round increases the chance of a "click" happening instead of a "boom". That is why point men in military breaching team are not allowed to have an open-bolt weapon. Same concept).

You can opt for a semi-auto shotgun, but they are finicky and run a decent chance of jamming at a crucial moment.

The M1A rifle isn't the best tool for CQC. The muzzle blast, weight, and over-penetration of the round weigh against the rifle heavily. The M1A is a dated, but very robust design. The military uses this rifle only becuase there was still many in the inventory, and the rifle used a powerful cartridge. If the funding was given to find a replacement for the M1A/M14 variants used by today's military, the rifle would be quickly replaced.

This is the world where the 9mm subgun and the AR carbine thrive in. A compact M4 platform with a suppressor to keep muzzle flash down and a good CQC optic is a great tool to have. A 9mm subgun like an MP5 is almost better due to the low chance of over-penetration of the round, and the easily controllable recoil and fast fire rate.


Every department has their own tactics, though. The military doesn't use the shotguns much because our primary weapons are M4/M16 rifles and M9 sidearms. Some police departments will rely on shotguns more.

Different strokes for different folks.

P.S. You can tell in those pictures posted by KellyTTE that the preferred weapon for teams is the AR rifle in it's many different forms. Look like KellyTTE has the best of both worlds in one pic. Looks like he has an M4 converted to fire 9mm.

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Old 01-04-2009, 11:53 PM   #24
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You can opt for a semi-auto shotgun, but they are finicky and run a decent chance of jamming at a crucial moment.
My FN never missed a beat and I have NEVER experienced any of the conditions that you have described....

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Old 01-05-2009, 12:03 AM   #25
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Semi auto shotguns can work, but agencies do not like them because of the documented problems when trying to use one type of shotgun round versus another. Agencies would rather have a pump action shotgun that would feed non-lethal, buckshot, slugs, breaching rounds, 2 and 3/4 inch, 3 inch magnum, etc, etc....

You always want to pick a firearm that has the least chance of malfunctioning for the point man (or any breaching team member as a matter of fact). That's why the AR style carbine is currently very popular right now.

FN shotguns are very nice, though. I have played around with a few of them, and I do like the feel and action.

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Old 01-05-2009, 12:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Shotguns are preferrably used for breaching duties, and breaching duties only. They are still used for other duties in a breach team, but it's better just to swap out for your pistol once you clear that first door (easier to manuver a sidearm around your battle buddies versus a shotgun).

When stacking up and moving into a structure, a shotgun is clumsy for CQC. The muzzle blast, combined with the motion required to jack the slide back and forth can cause big problems (the more motions/operations required to fire a round increases the chance of a "click" happening instead of a "boom". That is why point men in military breaching team are not allowed to have an open-bolt weapon. Same concept).

You can opt for a semi-auto shotgun, but they are finicky and run a decent chance of jamming at a crucial moment.

The M1A rifle isn't the best tool for CQC. The muzzle blast, weight, and over-penetration of the round weigh against the rifle heavily. The M1A is a dated, but very robust design. The military uses this rifle only becuase there was still many in the inventory, and the rifle used a powerful cartridge. If the funding was given to find a replacement for the M1A/M14 variants used by today's military, the rifle would be quickly replaced.

This is the world where the 9mm subgun and the AR carbine thrive in. A compact M4 platform with a suppressor to keep muzzle flash down and a good CQC optic is a great tool to have. A 9mm subgun like an MP5 is almost better due to the low chance of over-penetration of the round, and the easily controllable recoil and fast fire rate.


Every department has their own tactics, though. The military doesn't use the shotguns much because our primary weapons are M4/M16 rifles and M9 sidearms. Some police departments will rely on shotguns more.

Different strokes for different folks.

P.S. You can tell in those pictures posted by KellyTTE that the preferred weapon for teams is the AR rifle in it's many different forms. Look like KellyTTE has the best of both worlds in one pic. Looks like he has an M4 converted to fire 9mm.
I've run kill houses and trenches with both a SAW and an M60E3. If you train to use them effectively any firearm is capable of close quarters work. In addition, the more lead you can put into a human, the less of a threat they become.

Your sidearm is a last resort backup that is used to defend yourself while you get back to your long arm, or while you're performing remedial actions on it.

All I can tell from Kelly's pictures is that he and a few buddies decided to play dress up one day. Their stacks are sloppy, there is no uniformity and they've all got the latest, greatest, Hollywood tactical gear. I wouldn't enter a building with a single one of them, based solely on appearance.

You absolutely need to train as you fight. Both you and Kelly have said that on several occasions. I only see one person in that picture wearing body armor. There is no way in hell that I'm entering a hostile building without body armor. It's suicide.

Also, a shotgun at 10 feet will create massive trauma, causing massive shock and system collapse. The same can't be said for 5.56 NATO.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:02 AM   #27
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Yes, you've run the killhouses and trenches with the SAW or M-60, but you did not run them as point man. It's against the Army doctrine to put an open bolt weapon as point. That why there is funding right now to find a selectable open-bolt/closed bolt weapon to replace the bulky SAW.

At least that the current way the Army/USAF does it. I don't know when this was adopted into the training, so maybe we are on two different trains of thought.

A three round burst from a 5.56mm NATO round WILL cause extreme cessation of life preserving bodily functions just as effectively as a blast of 00 buck would.

I wasn't going to say anything regarding the no body armor thing, but you're right. I even have my own personal gear to train with because, lets face it, the government only allows a such amount of time for combat training, and it's never enough...lol.

P.S. The stacking did suck royally in the pictures (when compared to what I'm used to), but the standards are different when you compare some civilian training with military training. In other words, there are different "styles" of training when it comes to stacks. Some training requires 360 degree coverage. Some training is more focused on getting through the door and clearing out the threats inside.

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Old 01-05-2009, 07:19 PM   #28
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Yes, you've run the killhouses and trenches with the SAW or M-60, but you did not run them as point man. It's against the Army doctrine to put an open bolt weapon as point. That why there is funding right now to find a selectable open-bolt/closed bolt weapon to replace the bulky SAW.

At least that the current way the Army/USAF does it. I don't know when this was adopted into the training, so maybe we are on two different trains of thought.

A three round burst from a 5.56mm NATO round WILL cause extreme cessation of life preserving bodily functions just as effectively as a blast of 00 buck would.

I wasn't going to say anything regarding the no body armor thing, but you're right. I even have my own personal gear to train with because, lets face it, the government only allows a such amount of time for combat training, and it's never enough...lol.

P.S. The stacking did suck royally in the pictures (when compared to what I'm used to), but the standards are different when you compare some civilian training with military training. In other words, there are different "styles" of training when it comes to stacks. Some training requires 360 degree coverage. Some training is more focused on getting through the door and clearing out the threats inside.
My 249 was a full sized, with a collapsible stock, so it wasn't as tiny as one of these guys, but these things are the same size as an M4 with the stock folded out. With the stock collapsed as this one was, they're smaller than that.

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Old 01-05-2009, 11:53 PM   #29
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I do like the para-SAWs. Still, the average infantry troops won't get those to use. They'll have to deal with the regular SAWs which are a little bulky.

I don't know what the status is for a replacement, but I'm sure it won't be anytime soon. Too many other things to worry about right now.

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Old 01-06-2009, 12:08 AM   #30
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I do like the para-SAWs. Still, the average infantry troops won't get those to use. They'll have to deal with the regular SAWs which are a little bulky.

I don't know what the status is for a replacement, but I'm sure it won't be anytime soon. Too many other things to worry about right now.
Most of the SAW gunners in Iraq have the M249E3s. They've gone to them, for the simple fact that they're an individual weapon, rather than crew served and, in that form, they're very easy to swing around indoors. The shorter barrel gives only a minor drop in effective range and the shortened gas system in no way effect reliability as it was adopted from SOCOM's Mk 48 Mod 0 rifle.
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