So, Tell Me WHY the Op Rod Tactical?
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:56 PM   #1
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Default So, Tell Me WHY the Op Rod Tactical?

Here's the classic example of the hardcore tactical rifle, on the ground, in the worst scenario imaginable ( Sniper Randy Shugart in Black Hawk Down, MoH Winner ).

So, I have room in the safe. I got a woman with a new job. Which frees up some money for old JD.

I need supreme accuracy. 1" at 100 yards is not good enough for me. A rifle I spend this kind of money on, has to shoot better than I can.

So, extole on my the virtues of a dog legged, op-rod driven platform that induces harmonic vibration into the barrel prior to the round leaving and why I should dump this kind of money on this unit for SHTF.


Conditions:

  • Wood stock is not an option. I don't like wood.
  • Bull Barrel, NM Match, preferably Krieger, will be put on my weapon
  • Glass Bed is a must
  • SUB Minute of Angle is a MUST
Any custom shops you like? I have been researching Warbirds Custom - but I don't know.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:36 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Here's the classic example of the hardcore tactical rifle, on the ground, in the worst scenario imaginable ( Sniper Randy Shugart in Black Hawk Down, MoH Winner ).

So, I have room in the safe. I got a woman with a new job. Which frees up some money for old JD.

I need supreme accuracy. 1" at 100 yards is not good enough for me. A rifle I spend this kind of money on, has to shoot better than I can.

So, extole on my the virtues of a dog legged, op-rod driven platform that induces harmonic vibration into the barrel prior to the round leaving and why I should dump this kind of money on this unit for SHTF.


Conditions:
  • Wood stock is not an option. I don't like wood.
  • Bull Barrel, NM Match, preferably Krieger, will be put on my weapon
  • Glass Bed is a must
  • SUB Minute of Angle is a MUST
Any custom shops you like? I have been researching Warbirds Custom - but I don't know.
So JD it sounds like your going to take the plunge and get yourself a M14/MIA.

Some of the companies I bought parts from for mine are McCann Insudsties and Krieger barrels. Krieger barrels IMO is the only way to go for barrel.

The one I have up and running now is a mid '90's SAI. It was the loaded version with their "Match" barrel. When new it would deliver 3/4" MOA. (lucky I guess) However, now with 30,000 + rounds through barrel it delivers 1-1/4"+ MOA. Barrel is done. Krieger barrel is going on sometime next year. I will not be going for a short barrel either.

I'll have Krieger do their services on the reciever as well. Not decided what to do with gas system yet. Some of the gas system mods not only help with some of the bad harmonics but will let you shoot heavier than 175 gr. bullets. However you can shoot heavier than 175 gr. bullets if you turn off the gas and sled a round in one at a time and manually cycle the action. I'll have it bedded here by a gunsmith I just found that does work for the 1000 yard target guys at the range I go to.

Reducing the harmonics problems this action delivers can be difficult and somewhat spendy. I have to say on all other aspects of this rifle it is built like a "Brick Shat House" and rugged as hell. It can take alot of abuse and still function.

I myself will be staying with wood stock. It feels correct for me when shooting this rifle. Besides, they just dont look right without wood stocks JMO.

Also, the M-14/M1A is a true heavy battle rifle as is the M1 Garand and if you run out of ammo that wood stock makes a good skull crushing club.

Some aftermarket stocks I've seen for the M-14/M1A are made by McMillan, McCann Industries, and Smith Enterprises. I'm sure you're already aware of these companies and these stocks but thats all I can think of in what I precieve in as better quality stuff.

I never have put much stock and trade into any semi automatic rifle as being accurate as lets say a bolt gun. But when this rifle of mine was new it was suprisingly accurate for what it is.

Right now I'm still waiting for my Remmy 700 target rifle to be finished. So I dont see any work being done to my M1A until mid to late next year. Until then it is still fun to shoot.

Hopefully M14s Rock will chime in soon. I think this is the guy who knows what is and what isn't for the M-14/M1A
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:44 PM   #3
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I don't know J.D.,I just have never liked the M1A. It's heavy,ugly,and you can build an AR10 that will out shoot it all day long,plus you can also change calibers if you want something with a little more power & range than a 308/7.62 rd.

But if that is what you want,go and get one my friend! They are some fine shooters from what I've heard.

PS,I know the AR10 is also a heavy bitch,but it isn't nearly as fugly!! LOL

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Old 10-17-2009, 11:49 PM   #4
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I don't know J.D.,I just have never liked the M1A. It's heavy,ugly,and you can build an AR10 that will out shoot it all day long,plus you can also change calibers if you want something with a little more power & range than a 308/7.62 rd.

But if that is what you want,go and get one my friend! They are some fine shooters from what I've heard.

PS,I know the AR10 is also a heavy bitch,but it isn't nearly as fugly!! LOL
BELIEVE ME Brother - I am 100% in your court. I am a BIG AR fan. I love the system. I know how to build it. I know how to service it. And I know how shoot it.

What I want to know is why people want this platform, in this configuration and what they are willing to do to get it to shoot.

JD
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:57 AM   #5
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Well JD you are either starting to see the light, or are having some fun. I'll bite. Ha.

Sub MOA is easily achievable. The top two bbl choices for you to look at are Krieger or one of Ron Smith's M80HT bbls (which he uses in the Crazy Horse rifles). SEI's are all medium wt and designed for M118LR (175gr). You will never wear one out due to the M80HT. The Krieger's are avail med wt (recommended) and twist rates can be optimized for your bullet wt. Most of the long range guys are extolling the virtues of 1/11.25 twist tubes for .308, and you can get a Krieger with a 1/11 twist. Close enough.

As for stocks, a good old USGI synthetic with some forend reinforcing (super easy to do) can be bedded nice and tight for cheap. But one of the McMillan stocks would be better. HueyGunner has a super light carbon fiber stock that is stiff. Also, a JAE G2 stock would serve you well but they are not as traditional looking. Sage? VLTOR? Several choices for you.

For your build, I would strongly suggest SEI and Ted Brown (Shooters Den) in OR. For your receiver, an LRB. If a scope is needed get an M25 receiver.

The M14 will give you the best trigger possible in a semi, the best iron sights ever used, AK reliability, and a coolness factor off the charts. Plus it goes so well with a 1911.

My LRB M25 was built by LRB with a medium wt chrome lined Criterion bbl (division of Krieger, essentially). No NM mods at all, just a production rifle off the line. It shoots 5/8", 5 shot groups at 100yds (BHM 168gr) when I pay attention and do my part. That is with factory ammo. I'm working on some decent handloads for it, but time is tight and BHM 168 is plentiful. Now it is in a JAE G2 stock, has a Sadlak NM spring guide, and chrome silicon springs. But no unitized gas cylinder or other spendy mods.

How much better do I need a 7.62x51/.308Win rifle to shoot than MOA, anyway? MOA still gives me hits at 800 on paper plate sized targets. And after 800 I'm better off with one of the .300 or .338Lap mags.

Re accuracy, here is a rundown of some of my rifles.

An early 90's Armscorp M14 that is completely stock(photo below). I dropped it into an old birch GI stock (no bedding) and proceeded to fire several 5 shot sub MOA groups with iron sights (which honestly did surprise me). No mods at all, and with a Winchester chrome lined bbl. It even has a Chinese bolt (one of the good ones, though). So I put it into a JAE stock and scoped it. I prefer synthetic to wood as well, so sold the birch to a guy on another forum.

A custom built SEI with Krieger med wt ss bbl in a bedded McMillan M1A stock that is boringly accurate. I've used it with irons in a sniper class and wondered why I even bother with scoped rifles. This rifle is a retired Camp Perry rifle. It has all the cool bells and whistles, but is old, well worn and bitchin.


A standard wt Springfield built by Ronnie Morris in the late 80's. It is a full NM grade, standard wt rifle. With old Portugese ball it used to turn in 5 shot groups at 100 yards that were all touching (nickel sized groups?), with iron sights. I have not fired it in over 10 years, but have no reason to assume it wouldn't shoot that well again. It may get dragged to the range next month, just because.


And here is a representative group from my M25.

LRB M25 and Armscorp with JAE G2 stocks and IOR scopes.



Some of my rifles don't break the MOA barrier, but I think they could with a few easy mods. They are all is USGI synthetic stocks and bone stock, except for the chrome sil springs. And nobody would want me shooting at them at 800 yards with any of them, I'm guessing.

One more benefit of the M14 is that is doesn't have any issues with the receiver stretching. Uncle Sugar stipulated a service life of over 300,000rds and many have gone close to a half mil and are still going strong (but with new bbls and such, of course.) And contrary to public opinion, the cast receivers on the SAI, Armscorp, Fed Ord, Fulton and other rifles last just as long as the forged USGI and LRB receivers.

I hope you pull the trigger on a nice M14. You will not regret it.

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Old 10-18-2009, 01:50 AM   #6
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Okay. I would like to give MAD PROPS to mrm14 and M14sRock.

Thank you for responding!

Your two posts have been MOST enlightening that I have read, thus far, on this argument.

Now, I am not READY, to plunk down $2500 on a rifle SANS OPTICS, but I am willing to talk about it.

I have SHOT coming up in January, and I would like a few names on my visit list. The best of the best in the industry, all under the same big roof.

So. You two have $2500 to spend on PARTS. Gunsmithing is second. I can get gunsmithing done cheap. I know a guy. But, if you know a guy that is better than the best, I would like to know...

What do you buy? Where do you buy it from and why? What are the good, better and best parts that you would consider??

Quote:
goes so well with a 1911
That's some funny stuff right there. Now I must have one.

Thanks for your input.

JD
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:05 AM   #7
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Just let us get our feet in the door JD and you will be a convert.

$2500 is not actually required. But spending $7500 is easily possible.

I recently sold a box stock SAI Loaded Model in a walnut stock. It would shoot about half MOA with irons and good ammo. But the receiver was out of spec, and rather than order another Sadlak mount (which can be factory altered to fit an out of spec receiver), I just sold it to a friend who did not care about a scope. The average Loaded will do MOA or better in my experience, right from the box. Less than $2K retail.

But go to LRB at SHOT and talk to Paul. Order a receiver from them. Get a Krieger bbl and all USGI parts. And as a plus, Ted Brown will be with LRB at SHOT probably. He can discuss M14 build particulars with you.

You can even send your action and bolt to Krieger and they will mount and headspace their bbl for you. What could be better?

Trigger work should be done by an experienced M14 armorer, and the TG needs to be worked on in conjunction with the barrelled receiver.

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Old 10-18-2009, 03:22 AM   #8
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M14sRock,I must appologize. The two guns in the bottom pic are damn good lookin rifles,and I bet they shoot as good as they look. THB

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Old 10-18-2009, 06:40 AM   #9
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M14sRock,I must appologize. The two guns in the bottom pic are damn good lookin rifles,and I bet they shoot as good as they look. THB
Thanks Tex. No need to apologize for anything.

The one on top is the LRB M25 with the Criterion Med Wt tube. It is the rifle that fired the group on the target pictured.

I'll be using another Criterion 18.5" bbl for my next build, but standard wt, not medium wt. I have a really special LRB M14SA receiver waiting to be completed.

The bottom one is the Armscorp with the Winchester bbl and the Chinese bolt. I've had it about 17 years now. Almost sold it earlier this year but my buddy never showed up to complete the sale. So I decided to shoot it while waiting for him. After seeing how well it shot (I had not shot it on paper for a few years) I was very happy he didn't show. Ha.

As for the weight, an M14 with an 18.5" standard weight bbl and a lightweight stock like a USGI synthetic can be quite trim. I have no issues carrying one all day, especially with a good sling. Weighs about the same as a 20" A2 without optics.
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:11 PM   #10
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SEI is selling sub MOA M21s in SAGE chassis right now.

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