Shooting down gun myths, Muzzle Brakes - Page 3
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:36 AM   #21
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A conspicuous absence of Tango in this thread......?
I'm sure he'll chime in sooner or later.

You know how much he hates brakes.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:49 PM   #22
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Well I am going to have to agree here with everyone, that it is just the direction of the escaping pressure! As show in the photo and video below!



If you look you can see the muzzle blast in the photo! Talk about perfect timing from the girl working the camera!




Another blast from my big baby, I fully regret standing where I was for this video!

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Old 10-21-2010, 12:33 AM   #23
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Well I am going to have to agree here with everyone, that it is just the direction of the escaping pressure! As show in the photo and video below!



If you look you can see the muzzle blast in the photo! Talk about perfect timing from the girl working the camera!




Another blast from my big baby, I fully regret standing where I was for this video!


Great photos, makes me drool unashamedly!


Can I ask one thing, what areas are you allowed to shoot something of that calibre? Looks like pretty forested ground where you are there...

Just wondering as any from .338Lap up (becoming rarer to find accomodating ranges and there are very, very few that exist for BMG) requires a template in flat terrain unbaffled of 4km from the firing line here. Width is ricochet distance of 400m either side of the firing line (with ricochet angles from firing line toward target and from target line toward firing line).
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:42 AM   #24
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Great photos, makes me drool unashamedly!


Can I ask one thing, what areas are you allowed to shoot something of that calibre? Looks like pretty forested ground where you are there...

Just wondering as any from .338Lap up (becoming rarer to find accomodating ranges and there are very, very few that exist for BMG) requires a template in flat terrain unbaffled of 4km from the firing line here. Width is ricochet distance of 400m either side of the firing line (with ricochet angles from firing line toward target and from target line toward firing line).


Well for the first two photos I am shooting across an 700 acre field, we backed up into the wood line just a bit to make a shot at around 732 yrds. It is located on a large plantation along the banks of the Mississippi River with the plantation totaling a little over 3200 acres (mostly oak hardwoods) and only one house and a few barns across the property. It is all privately owned and I worked out a bargain that if I payed for all ammo and supplied my gun , 10-15 shots is all he wanted, so all in all it cost me about $75 bucks for the "range fee". But as you stated the piece of mind know that I wasn't going to hit anyone or anything with a ricochet is well worth that price!! Oh and I know have an open invite to come back anytime I want!

Now for the video this was one of the first trips out for testing my new "toy"(yes I purchased this as a toy, I do not intend to hunt with it, I wanted to test my limits with long range shooting with a big bore). There is also two State run Wildlife Management areas in Louisiana that allows you to shoot the 50 BMG, but the range is only 100 yds with dirt berms located on 3 sides to effectively prevent any ricochets. There are a few private owned ranges in Louisiana that you can pay a fairly high membership for to be able to shoot, but most others will not let you shoot much over a 30 caliber rifle, even though they have a 600 yd range.
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:01 AM   #25
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I don't believe that a muzzle brake will make the firearm actually louder, however the noise level perceived by the shooter will probably be increased. Noise and pressure waves that are normally projected forward and away from the shooter are now allowed to escape the barrel in different directions and sometimes back toward the ear of the person behind the trigger.

Don't forget that ported barrels also effectively shorten the barrel length, and this allows more powder to be changed into noise energy instead of mechanical energy which propels the bullet. This translates to more noise.
Auslach, you are close.First the burning powder expands thousands of time it original volume and this caused the expanding gas to exert pressure on the heel of the bullet.The bullet is pushed up the barrel compressing the air in the barrel ahead of it and the first low pressure noise you hear is that. The reason I called it low pressure is because the muzzle comp and the hole at the end of the barrel keeps it from building up "high" pressure. Then the powder gas reaches the comp and because it has residual energy (the powder is still burning) it will blow out the comp and cause a extremely fast burning of the left-over powder. (A explosive burning if you will)The reason this happens is because the oxygen rich atmospher that the burning powder gas hits gives it a boost to it's burning speed. The rest of the gas that continues on down to the muzzle does the same thing. Fast action pictures will show the muzzle gas going in a circle 360 deg. from the barrel. The reason it does not go straight out the barrel muzzle is because the bullet is in the way. So you get a ring of burning powder gas at the barrel until the bullet is on it's way down range. And then the last of the powder gas follows the bullet because of the vacume left behind it. Now back to the comp. The gas that is coming out of the comp besides hitting the oxygen is also slower because of the abrupt turn it had to make and of course by the loss of energy pushing forward on the slanted surfaces of the comp holes. But it still has a lot of powder gas energy and it does make noise. But the over all noise of the "BANG" is not compounded or multiplied by the comp. What many shooters and the people that are unfortunate or perhaps dumb enough to stand just to the rear and one side of the shooter are hearing is noise and also is pressure. The Pressure of the air being pushed and the powder gas hitting the spectator is being interpreted by them as noise. And it must be added that most often only the large caliber rifles have comps on them so there is more BOOM naturally than a normal rifle. Being anywhere near one of those magnums when it goes off will ring your ears.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:36 AM   #26
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Auslach, you are close.First the burning powder expands thousands of time it original volume and this caused the expanding gas to exert pressure on the heel of the bullet.The bullet is pushed up the barrel compressing the air in the barrel ahead of it and the first low pressure noise you hear is that. The reason I called it low pressure is because the muzzle comp and the hole at the end of the barrel keeps it from building up "high" pressure. Then the powder gas reaches the comp and because it has residual energy (the powder is still burning) it will blow out the comp and cause a extremely fast burning of the left-over powder. (A explosive burning if you will)The reason this happens is because the oxygen rich atmospher that the burning powder gas hits gives it a boost to it's burning speed. The rest of the gas that continues on down to the muzzle does the same thing. Fast action pictures will show the muzzle gas going in a circle 360 deg. from the barrel. The reason it does not go straight out the barrel muzzle is because the bullet is in the way. So you get a ring of burning powder gas at the barrel until the bullet is on it's way down range. And then the last of the powder gas follows the bullet because of the vacume left behind it. Now back to the comp. The gas that is coming out of the comp besides hitting the oxygen is also slower because of the abrupt turn it had to make and of course by the loss of energy pushing forward on the slanted surfaces of the comp holes. But it still has a lot of powder gas energy and it does make noise. But the over all noise of the "BANG" is not compounded or multiplied by the comp. What many shooters and the people that are unfortunate or perhaps dumb enough to stand just to the rear and one side of the shooter are hearing is noise and also is pressure. The Pressure of the air being pushed and the powder gas hitting the spectator is being interpreted by them as noise. And it must be added that most often only the large caliber rifles have comps on them so there is more BOOM naturally than a normal rifle. Being anywhere near one of those magnums when it goes off will ring your ears.
Sarge
Hey Sarge, thanks for clearing that up!
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:07 PM   #27
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It might be the same amount of noise created but the brake, focuses the noise. It becomes louder in some areas and quieter in others. I doubt many people would be willing to stand in front of the brake to test this though.

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Old 10-21-2010, 02:15 PM   #28
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Muzzel blast and felt recoil can be mitigated by optimizing the powders burn rate to the length of the barrel. About 40 years ago my wife had a 243 with a 19" barrel. Short barrels get more muzzel blast due to the unburned powder "exploding" as it left the barrel. I selected a powder with a faster burn rate so the powder would mostly burn in the tube. The rifle shot sub 1/2 minute with the handloads.
The new Superformance loads are using new powder technology to accomplish the same thing. I had to give up a little muzzel velocity but the new powders actually gain speed without increasing recoil by burning up in the tube. Superformance loads are running a 100-200 fps faster with the same or less recoil and pressure than standard loads.

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Old 10-21-2010, 03:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by sarge_257 View Post
Fast action pictures will show the muzzle gas going in a circle 360 deg. from the barrel. The reason it does not go straight out the barrel muzzle is because the bullet is in the way. So you get a ring of burning powder gas at the barrel until the bullet is on it's way down range.
A ring?

You must be shooting with worn out barrels because I get "starbursts" that coincide with the single cut grooves in my barrels.
















j/k
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:25 AM   #30
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Yeah...I thought it was pretty much taken for granted that a true muzzle brake increases the actual decibels directed back towards the shooters ear, and even more so to the folks standing next to them. I don't think that really counts as a "myth". It's just fact.
Now, me, I'll hazard this...a muzzle brake, in order to be a real muzzle brake, must direct energy REARWARD in order to counteract the recoil of the cartridge. The bullet causes the actual recoil...all pressure is equal inside the chamber, and the bullet and bolt "shove" each other away from them, which pushes the whole gun back into your arm. The MUZZLE BRAKE is designed to catch some of the gas, and direct it rearward, to provide JET THRUST of a sort in the opposite direction of the recoil. Familiar at all with the principle of the "recoiless-rifle" (the large-caliber, military weapon)? A muzzle brake replicates on a smaller, and far less effective scale the equalizing effect of a blast in the opposite vector to the recoil of the bullet accelerating out the barrel.
Since the entire rifle is such a big, heavy chunk of metal and wood (or plastic, if that's your "thing"), it takes the impulse far slower than tiny little bullet. That means, given an equal force, it takes far longer to accelerate than the bullet does. The cartridge goes off...the bullet accelerates up the barrel, and the gun almost imperceptibly begins to move rearward, building speed as the bullet nears the muzzle.
As the bullet reaches the muzzle-brake ports, the high pressure gas is directed to the REAR, providing a very quick thrust or impulse to the rear, taking a lot of "oomph" out if the building acceleration of the gun/stock.

In conclusion, not only does a true muzzle brake truly direct blast (and sound) to the rear (not 90deg from the muzzle), but I doubt even a plain-muzzled rifle actually vents to a true 90deg. Ever seen muzzle-flash from a gun without a flash suppressor? (i.e. not the movie-gooks shooting back with their AK's)? It tends to spear out the front, with a relatively small blast around the muzzle itself. I suspect that flash suppressors do actually increase the heard-noise level to a small extent, since they DO direct some of the gasses outward...but they generally also provide a small area for the gasses to expand slightly before exiting the ports...and the lower the pressure, the slower(quieter) the escaping gas will be.
Of course, sound waves travel slightly different from the blast (that's why they still sound loud when you shoot plain-muzzled guns), but the vector of the blast makes a difference.
Listen to a loud (or even quiet, if you listen close) jet fly past at low level...as it comes it, it sounds relatively quiet (and this is ignoring the Doppler change in the pitch). It gets a bit louder as it gets about 15-20deg overhead, but when it passes 90deg...hooly shyte!!! Now imagine a jet with a muzzle brake directing that force forward?
LOL, in fact, that reminds me of the Harrier attack fighter(whatever version you want...GR.1 through AV-8B+) is notoriously loud to those on the ground, particularly when hovering or in V/STOL mode. Any guesses why? Because the jets are facing DOWN, toward the ground. It's even very loud in horizontal flight, due to the relatively small nozzle area to mass-flow...i.e. high speed exhausts, the same reason that older turbojets are so god-awful loud (of course, the Harrier is a turboFAN...turbojets are inherently loud, but the Pegasus turbofan in the Harrier is only loud because of it's nozzle configuration.
You missed something there Johnny, Yes the burning gas does go to the rear because it is defleted off the angled surfaces of the muzzle brake. But the part that you missed is called "For ever action there is a opposite reaction" In other words when the powder gas hits the inclined planes of the muzzle brake it also expends some of it's energy attempting to move the whole rifle foreward not to the rear. That is why it is called a muzzle brake and is used on heavy recoiling rifles. The burning gas then bounces off the muzzle brake (and has less energy because of the energy it used up.) and it goes to the (not rear) but to an oblique direction per what ever the angle of the cuts in the muzzle brake. So immediatly behind the rifle is a good place to be, but at say 45 degrees to the rear (which is where most people stand) is a bad place to be.
.
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