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Old 02-26-2010, 02:19 AM   #21
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Well, Mud, if it wasn't for having to part with a bunch of money spec I would have an AR10 in the safe too. I stood in a gun shop sometime back and drooled over one, but just couldn't part with all that money. I knew that my M14s needed it.
I guess you can tell by now that I am truly an M1A/M14 fanatic. I know what it will and can do and it knows me. I build tailor made ammo for mine and they like it. They punch small tight groups in targets for me at any reasonable range.
Once an old M14 trained soldier gets back into the M14 world with an M1A he knows that in his hands he holds one of the most formidable and effective weapons ever invented. As I said before, once you are infected with the M14disease, there is no cure and you simply must learn to live with it. You get bit real hard.
Once a mediochre M1A has been across the bench of a competent and superior M1A/M14 smith, he turns it into a super performer. Then the only limitations to a most perfect rifle is the pair of eyeballs behind the receiver.
To investigate this further, all you need to do is to ask an M1A lover whose rifle has been under the hands of an M1A/M14 magician known as "Ol' Hook."
I don't know how to express my feelings of this beloved piece in any other fashion.

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Old 02-26-2010, 12:13 PM   #22
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So I guess this isn't the right thread to look for a non-biased comparison between the M1A and the AR-10? HaHaHaHaHa!

I bought a stripped AR-15 lower just because I thought the current administration would ban them, but I'm not in a real hurry to build it because I think it's a useless round for close in defense and long range.

I'm of the opinion that the .308 is far superior to the .223. That got me to thinking about scrapping the AR-15 idea and building a AR-10. I've already got my Rem700VTR for my EOW (End of the World) Long Range gun...figured I'd build a .308 AR for my EOW Close-In gun and only have to scrounge around for one bullet type.

Then I eventually got into the idea of a M1A and that's where I'm at now. If I already have long range covered with the 700, it seems that the AR would be the logical choice because it's lighter, shorter, and there's a billion accessories to customize it with.................................buuuuuuuuuuuu uut, it's NOT an M1A.

An AR-10 is like the newer sleeker youngster that just got out of college and forced the more qualified, but higher priced old guy to be downsized. I myself am a youngster of sorts (32) but my wisdom is older than my years, and if it's my business, I'll usually take the loyal reliable more expensive sure thing any day over something that's new and looks good.

So what now? lol.
Nothing wrong with the AR10 at all. The military is looking into that type rifle to replace the aging population of M14s. From an armorers perspective they are a LOT easier to deal with. I love the nostalgia of the M1A BUT...

Do not dismiss the AR15 as a CQB weapon/round.

The folks at PDTV (Personal Defense TV) get to shoot a lot of guns and talk to a lot of experts and the Producer of the show swears that the perfect HD CQB gun is an AR SRB. With the proper ammo there is less risk of over penetration and you have 30 rounds of great defensive ammo at your hands before a reload is needed.

The AR platform lends itself to customizing and you can easily put together CQB or long range rigs that are tough, easy to repair and in a SHTF scenario REAL easy to feed.

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Old 02-26-2010, 12:20 PM   #23
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There is just something about wood and steel on an MBR that makes it a more loveable and warm piece to have in your hands. Hard black plastic is not cuddly.

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Old 02-26-2010, 03:39 PM   #24
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I bought a stripped AR-15 lower just because I thought the current administration would ban them, but I'm not in a real hurry to build it because I think it's a useless round for close in defense and long range.
I'm not trying to single you out, but I would really like to know where all these people keep getting this information. My research has shown me the 5.56 round is a great defense round. This caliber caused the users of the AK-47 to change gears and calibers. Thus, the creation of the AK-74. There has been literally thousands ballistics comparisons and cases in ware fare where this round was proven time and time again to be a substantial man stopper. This round I can attest was chosen by LE for that fact and there is no over penetration when it strikes a soft target. While the 7.62x39 passed straight through soft targets.

Also, the range of the 5.56 round although it may not be a 1k round is plenty for the average shooter. This round is routinely used a 300+ meters.

Is it because the round is .22 and that sounds too small? Is it because the all the new hype with the 50 cal rounds? Or is it because my research is completely wrong and there is some evidence to the contrary? If I am wrong I need to be corrected.

take care and be safe.
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:20 PM   #25
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There is just something about wood and steel on an MBR that makes it a more loveable and warm piece to have in your hands. Hard black plastic is not cuddly.
Such a good comment, haha.

I've been reading and looking at a lot of info, talking to a lot of people. In all honesty, I'm sure I'd be happy with whichever make/model I got. Holding out for a Springer Loaded though....I think that'd be a reasonable goal!
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:48 PM   #26
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Now that I have my M1 Garand, the M1A is very high (maybe next) on my list, I want the full length wood stocked version for my long distance "reach out and touch someone" rifle. I know JD will be along to chastise me for not making that a bolt gun!

In my own twisted and warped mind, the M1A (M14) is a very elegant rifle and I think that it is a beautiful piece of work. Now, I have a friend at work who served in the US Army in Vietnam when the M14 was his service rifle, he doesn't like the M1A nearly as much as I do (too heavy)!

I had been debating between the M1A and the AR-10, but the M1A will win out in my mind.

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Old 02-27-2010, 03:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by DarinCraft View Post
I'm not trying to single you out, but I would really like to know where all these people keep getting this information. My research has shown me the 5.56 round is a great defense round. This caliber caused the users of the AK-47 to change gears and calibers. Thus, the creation of the AK-74. There has been literally thousands ballistics comparisons and cases in ware fare where this round was proven time and time again to be a substantial man stopper. This round I can attest was chosen by LE for that fact and there is no over penetration when it strikes a soft target. While the 7.62x39 passed straight through soft targets.

Also, the range of the 5.56 round although it may not be a 1k round is plenty for the average shooter. This round is routinely used a 300+ meters.

Is it because the round is .22 and that sounds too small? Is it because the all the new hype with the 50 cal rounds? Or is it because my research is completely wrong and there is some evidence to the contrary? If I am wrong I need to be corrected.

take care and be safe.
Sorry for the book, but this is why I dislike the 5.56.

From Wikipedia:

Criticism

There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the bullet on target, especially the first-shot kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation.[10] This wounding problem has been cited in incidents beginning in the first Gulf war, Somalia, and ending in the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. In recent lab testing of M855, it has been shown that the bullets do not fragment reliably or consistently from round-to-round, displaying widely variable performance. In several cases, yawing did not begin until 7"-10" of penetration. This was with all rounds coming from the same manufacturer.[10] This lack of wounding capacity typically becomes an issue at increasingly shorter ranges (beyond 45m when using an M4 or 140m when using an M16 w/ a 20" barrel) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch (37 cm) barrel of the U.S. military's M4 carbine generates considerably less initial velocity than its big brother, the 20" barreled M16 and terminal performance can be a particular problem with the M4.

Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting.
This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants.
Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag’s papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) also describes this problem.[10]

However, if the bullet is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a person is greatly reduced. Several alternate cartridges have been developed in an attempt to address the perceived shortcomings of 5.56mm ammunition including the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm Remington SPC.

Recently, advances have been made in 5.56mm ammunition. The US military has adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range.[11] Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with special forces[citation needed] units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. It should be noted, however, that commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip).

Performance of 5.56x45mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mud4Brains View Post
Sorry for the book, but this is why I dislike the 5.56.

From Wikipedia:

Criticism

There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the bullet on target, especially the first-shot kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation.[10] This wounding problem has been cited in incidents beginning in the first Gulf war, Somalia, and ending in the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. In recent lab testing of M855, it has been shown that the bullets do not fragment reliably or consistently from round-to-round, displaying widely variable performance. In several cases, yawing did not begin until 7"-10" of penetration. This was with all rounds coming from the same manufacturer.[10] This lack of wounding capacity typically becomes an issue at increasingly shorter ranges (beyond 45m when using an M4 or 140m when using an M16 w/ a 20" barrel) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch (37 cm) barrel of the U.S. military's M4 carbine generates considerably less initial velocity than its big brother, the 20" barreled M16 and terminal performance can be a particular problem with the M4.

Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting.
This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants.
Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag’s papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) also describes this problem.[10]

However, if the bullet is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a person is greatly reduced. Several alternate cartridges have been developed in an attempt to address the perceived shortcomings of 5.56mm ammunition including the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm Remington SPC.

Recently, advances have been made in 5.56mm ammunition. The US military has adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range.[11] Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with special forces[citation needed] units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. It should be noted, however, that commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip).

Performance of 5.56x45mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.
I agree with the above as it comes to military use of the 5.56. Civilians on the other side do not have the limitations the military have as far as bullet construction and there are several offerings in the market for SD ammunition that are superb including TAP ammo and Gold Dot (this one might still be LE only but I'm sure it will make it's way out).

Also the myth of the one shot stop lives on. In a SD scenario you shoot until the opponent believes he is no longer a threat...
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:46 PM   #29
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So anyway....back to M1As...hahaha

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Old 02-27-2010, 10:55 PM   #30
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So anyway....back to M1As...hahaha
Exactly. Just buy one.

The M14 is a riflemans rifle.

It has the best sights ever used on a military rifle, has a great trigger, AK reliability, accuracy to spare, a lifespan measured in the hundreds of thousands of rds (USGI Bbls are good for 14,000+), ergonomics are great, and fires a serious round.

Stock up on CMI mags (they have been the sole USGI contractor since the 80's, and 44Mag.com has them for $20.49), buy a spare USGI extractor (or two) and hammer, install a set of Superior Shooting System chrome silicon springs and you will be set for life.

The M14 was adopted at an unfortunate time. It was the best rifle ever fielded by the US military, but due to changes in NATO only lasted a few years in front line service before being replaced by the M16. But the M14 has been in continuous military service since 1957 and there are no signs of that changing anytime soon.

M14 users are a passionate lot, and for very good reasons.
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