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Old 04-03-2012, 12:16 PM   #21
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Built to ISO 9001 quality.
Bwaaaahhhaaaaaaa...

Like that means anything...

ISO 900x only means you write down everything you do and follow it. It does
not mean what you produce is worth a crap. Only that you do what you say
you do, your paperwork is in order and you document non-conformances.

QS-9000 is only slightly better, because it at least has a component of
continuous improvement.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:08 PM   #22
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And how is that a problem? Were I work that means I'm held to a higher standard. I'm accountable for anything inferior. Maybe were you just it's just half ass.

Just proof that they demand a better product.

Is that all you have Shade?

Ask any gun shop. Remington quality is crap and continues to go down.

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Old 04-03-2012, 03:15 PM   #23
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Looks like my facts were correct--you even said so.

Twist my statement however you like, there bolts are garbage. If they wanted them to work they would have welded them to begin with.

Why do you Remington honks always fall back on the military using them, and in the next breath talk about how stupid and cheap a lot of their decisions are? And don't you dare try to twist that to me saying our brave men and women are stupid.

Speaking of that, Winchester are better anyway. Built to ISO 9001 quality.

So take a midol, calm down, and think about it. Remington still sucks.
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And how is that a problem?

Just proof that they demand a better product.

Is that all you have Shade?

Ask any gun shop. Remington quality is crap and continues to go down.
i didn't twist any of your words, i just proved your statement was incorrect, that the rifle builders you quoted only built rifles made from their own custom built actions, which is false. they do build using their own actions, but will built a rifle on actions built by Remington and Winchester. says right on their own websites, i looked them up myself last night.

you seem to be such a fountain of knowledge, so how does Winchester attach their bolt handles? well i contacted Winchester and Reington, guess what? they both use the same methods of brazing the bolt handles to the bolt body! both manufacterers said that bolt handle seperation does occur from time to time, but are usually isolated occurences due to improper metallurgy, defective weld material, or even possibly too hot a load used too many times.

i referenced the military simply because they do use Remington M700 rifles and actions in their bolt actions. i asked a rhetorical question, not infering that the brave men and women defending our country are stupid, far from it. they rely on a rifle to do their job that has been doing it for many years. i will also say they ahve used the Winchester M70 in the same applications as well.

face the fact, that if Remington, Winchester, Ruger or any other firearms maker produced a billet steel action and bolt assembly from scratch like the custom rifle builders do, it would be so expensive, only the rich and privelaged would be able to afford it. some of the custom actions are built off M700 designs, but cost anywhere from $3000-6000 for just the action.

ask any gun shop? there are probably as many custom rifles built on M700 actions as there are Mausers and Winchesters. look at the aftermarket support for Remington M700's. they have some of the largest aftermarket support, because that is what many are using for custom builds of all types. there wouldn't be that type of support if they were crap as you seem to think.

you are really starting to sound like a troll and seem to very uninformed about rifles in general and Remingtons in particular. the Winchester and the Remington are pretty much equal in quality and accuracy.

better do some reading up on ISO9001 standards and certifications. getting it means certain levels of requiremnts have been met, and once someone has the certification, doesn't always mean they still meet the requirements set.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:18 PM   #24
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So by your definition anyone that doesn't agree with you is uninformed and a troll?

You might as well be a liberal saying crap like that.

So are they brazed or silver soldered? You can't have both. And there is a difference.

Face it. Quality at Remington has gone down.

And I talked to Aaron Davidson at Gunwerks. He is the one who told me Remington is going downhill, and that's why they don't use them anymore. If you send them one they'll work on it, but they don't put in one of their rifles. Big difference there, ain't it?

So until you can come back with facts and not broad generalizations, your the troll.

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Old 04-03-2012, 04:49 PM   #25
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So by your definition anyone that doesn't agree with you is uninformed and a troll?

You might as well be a liberal saying crap like that.

So are they brazed or silver soldered? You can't have both. And there is a difference.

Face it. Quality at Remington has gone down.

And I talked to Aaron Davidson at Gunwerks. He is the one who told me Remington is going downhill, and that's why they don't use them anymore. If you send them one they'll work on it, but they don't put in one of their rifles. Big difference there, ain't it?

So until you can come back with facts and not broad generalizations, your the troll.
i have argued every statement you have made with facts! you make statements that are short of being rediculous!

factory brazes the bolt handles, many gunsmiths use silver soldering. Brownell's sells silver solder for the purpose of attaching bolt handles to the bolt body.

i have looked at new Remingtons, i am just not seeing where the quality has slipped when i compare them to older Remingtons.

yeah if i owned all the expensive machinery it takes to make a custom made action i would rather sell them to build a custom rifle than one that has a lesser profit margin. hmmm, let's see here, i can sell a $500 dollar M700 action and make a couple hundred dollars, or i can sell one of these $3000 dollar actions and make a couple thousand dollars. gee, if i was a custom rifle maker and had a bunch of expensive equipment, i sure as heck would push selling what had the higher profit margin and was paying the bills. that's just common sense and economics. also comparately speaking, the custom made one at a time actions are better, and Remington, Winchester, Ruger, and all the rest are mass produced by the thousands. so you are comparing apples to oranges and your comparison as usual hasn't any merit again.

as i said before, you're ill informed and know nothing about firearms and need to study and learn something about them before running off at the mouth about things you have no knowledge of. i went even as far as to go to each one of the gunmakers you mentioned, on their websites and countered your statements with information from their websites. i contacted Remington and Winchester both, and both said their bolt handles are brazed at the factory. both said that bolt handle seperation did occur, but were isolated occurences. so in regards, how is the Winchester M70 better than the Remington M700. IMO, they are both about equal in quality and accuracy. so keep trolling along troll!
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #26
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What makes you look like a troll is the fact that you are coming on here with 16 posts on your record and telling people who have nothing but positive experiences with a rifle that thousands of other people have had positive experiences with that said rifle is a piece of s**t when there are plenty of people who can and will prove you wrong, Axxe has proved your statement about custom builders not using Rem actions wrong so now you call him a liberal. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and every post you have made on this thread comes across as intentionally inflamatory, that is a sign of a "troll", someone who is always "trolling" for an argument and it is also a good way for a new person to catch the attention of one of the Mods on here and get banned from the site. You are not going to find many people to side with you that all R700s are junk simply because it isn't true, overall they are good, accurate rifles, sure one may have a problem form time to time as with anything that is mass produced but that doesn't make the whole line crap. I have a cheap R700 ADL and it will put 5 243s damn near through the same hole at 100 yards with Federal Premium ammo if I do my part, that is not an inaccurate rifle, and by the way the bolt handle is still attached too.

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Old 04-03-2012, 05:20 PM   #27
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At what point did I call him a liberal? I said he might as well be a liberal with an attitude like that.

So because I have 16 posts I don't know anything? Is it not possible that someone that has been hunting and shooting a long time can be new here? Or do they only tell you about this place when you buy your first gun?

You have facts? Look up Petersen's Rifle Shooter magazine January 2011 issue. Kenny Jarret talks about how unreliable Remington actions are and how he's building his own now. Gunwerks has hardly raised their price sinse 2008 when they were using Remington actions to now, now that they make their own. Gotta call BS on that argument.

I've read through your forum here, it seems anyone with a different opinion has repeatedly been shouted down for disagreeing with whatever the majority opinion is. A majority of America voted for Obama. How has that turned out?

You guys should do a little more research that just listening to whatever random people on here have to say.

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Old 04-03-2012, 06:04 PM   #28
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It really has nothing to do with how much firearms knowledge you possess compared with how long you have been on this site, it has to do with people don't like it when a new guy shows up with an attitude and starts making inflammatory comments, it isn't exactly putting your best foot forward, this forum is intended for discussion of firearm related topics not to start arguments with all who don't agree with your opinion, and your delivery makes it look like that is your intention. I for one consider myself to have extensive experience with the R700 enough to know that it is not the POS that you make it out to be and I really do not care what the opinion of a custom action builder is nomatter what his name is as I will never buy one, certainly not from a guy who calls a time tested proven system to be "unreliable", sounds like a guy trying to market his brand. I would say you are the one who needs to do some more research, maybe it will show you that your "brand loyalty" in this situation is unfounded. What facts am I supposed to have? 30 rs of experiencing the reliability and accuracy of the major bolt action rifles is enough fact for me, there is nothing wrong with Remington, Ruger, Savage, or Winchester bolt guns, they are all good choices and none of them are unreliable.
It sounds to me like you are saying if I go to the store right now and buy a R700 it is more than likely not going to shoot MOA groups because of its poor design and workmanship it is incapable of doing so, and also the bolt handle is very likely to fall off, is that what you are saying? Also I've seen a lot of BS printed in a lot of different magazines/newspapers, you can't always take something as fact simply because it is printed somewhere.

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Old 04-03-2012, 06:09 PM   #29
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thank you Bluecoondawg. i have many different rifles in my collection and i do a lot of shooting. i have owned hundreds of rifles over the years and plan on many more. i own Remingtons, Winchesters, Rugers, Marlins and many more. i get very good performance and accuracy out of all of them, because if i didn't, i wouldn't own them.

and i'm the troll? as he calls me! just too funny. i counter his statements with information from the places he states, and i'm generalizing! wow! actually he thinks he is going to make me inflamed and mad, but i'm actually getting a good laugh!

as Blue stated, and it's a fact, any massed produced item will have flaws, that's why they have warranties. i throw out and analogy, now follow along and keep up Model70, i don't want to lose you. Remington, Winchester, Ruger, ect. are massed produced just like Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet and others. a custom built rifle with a handmade action is more like a Rolls Royce or Ferrari. and i if i owned a car that costs as much as they do, just as custom hand built rifle, i would expect a different level of accuracy, performance and attention to detail. it's all in how much you are willing to spend.

i am far from being a liberal, and i didn't vote for Obama the first time, nor will i vote for him the next time. i am very much a conservative in my political views. because of my attitude! my attitude is that i don't care for people making inflammatory comments about things that have no merit or basis in fact. now had you come on here and suggested, that you prefer the M70 over the M700 based on the fact that is your preference, you would have gained much more credibility. but you make statements that i have disproven, using information from the same sources you stated.

i went online and read several articles by Layne Simpson about those Jarrett rifles, guess what? they were built on M700 actions! wow, one a 358 STA and a 7mm STW! i tried several different ways, but could never find an article stating that Jarrett said M700 actions are unreliable. Gunwerks builds custom actions and wants to sell custom rifles using their own actions, whats wrong with that? i too if having invested large amounts of money in equipment to make actions would sure be wanting to utilize it to it's potential to make me money! economics again and common sense. you are still comparing mass produced rifles to built one at a time custom built rifles. apples to oranges again in comparison.

i asked a question, that you seem to be avoiding, what makes the Winchester better than the Remington? i am asking you for your "expert" opinion as you seem to act as if you are more knowing about these subjects than the rest of us mere mortals.

as to your statement, that we should do more research, well it seems we are doing yours for you and everytime we come up with facts that counter your statements, you tell us we need more research. huh? you make no sense at all.

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Old 04-04-2012, 12:43 AM   #30
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Sorry guys, didn't want you to think I'd run and hid. I just got out of surgery, so I'm kind of out of it. I've enjoyed the lively debate. Glad it didn't get too personal.

Still don't like Remington's, but I'll leave you all alone about. You guys know your stuff.

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