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-   -   Remington 700 VRT .308 (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/remington-700-vrt-308-a-3712/)

longshot 03-14-2008 12:53 AM

Remington 700 VRT .308
 
Has anyone had a chance to play with one of these yet? I'm considering getting one for tactical shooting for my department. Also curious about the SPS model. Let me know if you guys have any input.

Bolosniper 03-15-2008 08:50 PM

I take it you are a sniper, or will soon be one for your department.

There are a number of sniper rifles on the market that are much better quality than the factory Remington offerings. The US Army is hedging at re-newing the contract for the M24 system with Remington. Unless Remington is able to improve the accuracy and consistency of the system, they just might lose it.

Two Friday nights ago I had the opportunity to host a dinner at Appleby's in Columbus Ga. for the cadre at the US Army Sniper School, Ft Benning. That was one of the topics of conversation at the table that night, among many others. One of the statements made that was universally agreed upon was that as snipers, we would all give our left nut to have a sniper rifle that shoots as well as a Match rifle, with the factory Match ammo we must use.

I would suggest looking to one of the smaller specialty manufacturers of turn bolt sniper rifles for a rifle if I were you. It will cost more money, but some few of them deliver a much better performing product. 1 MOA @100 yards isn't a good sniper rifle, and I don't care what is claimed about the accuracy of a rifle, it is what it will actually do at the range that matters. Not everyone is entirely truthfull about the performance and consistency of their product, ISO 9000 certification or not..

matt g 03-15-2008 09:28 PM

If you can afford one, look at Chey-Tac or Accuracy International.

edit: Oooh, Chey-Tac's new website is spiffy.

Bolosniper 03-17-2008 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt g (Post 19206)
If you can afford one, look at Chey-Tac or Accuracy International.

edit: Oooh, Chey-Tac's new website is spiffy.

The CheyTac is too expensive, and way to much cartridge (in any configuration - 408, 375, 338) for the application. We are currently using the same action and barrel manufacturer (Lawton Machine, LLC) as CheyTac for our production rifles because of the high quality of both products. That is part of the reason the CheyTac weapons system is making such large waves in the world of snipers.

I have rebuilt a large number of the SPS rifles, and there will be very little difference in any of the factory offerings from Remington as they are all built with a stock action and barrel as the heart and soul of the weapon. If you luck out and end up with a "good" barrel (rotary hammer forged barrels are anything but consistent), it will shoot pretty good out of the box. If not, then you won't be real happy. The US Army isn't extatic about the M24 for that very reason. I do believe that Remington is going to have to scramble to keep that contract.

longshot 03-19-2008 03:37 AM

Sniper soon too be. I work for a small department, basically in the middle of nowhere. I don't have the resources to establish much of a tactical team so the sniper is the next best application until additonal officers have time to arrive. It goes without saying that the small department has a very small budget, especially for new and unexplored applications surrounded by a crew that started before the tactical ways. Any help or advice on a cheaper rifle I can apply for tactical means would be much appreciated.

matt g 03-19-2008 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longshot (Post 19481)
Sniper soon too be. I work for a small department, basically in the middle of nowhere. I don't have the resources to establish much of a tactical team so the sniper is the next best application until additonal officers have time to arrive. It goes without saying that the small department has a very small budget, especially for new and unexplored applications surrounded by a crew that started before the tactical ways. Any help or advice on a cheaper rifle I can apply for tactical means would be much appreciated.

Kimber and Sako both make nice bolt guns that are nowhere near the cost of the Chey-Tacs. IIRC, both can be had in more mundane loads like .308 Win and .300 Win Mag or .300 WSM. Also, it sounds like the rifle might be doing double duty, so you might consider some sort of M14 platform. Smith Enterprise makes a nice M14 and is doing police and military work almost exclusively right now.

Bolosniper 03-19-2008 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=longshot;19481]Sniper soon too be. I work for a small department, basically in the middle of nowhere. I don't have the resources to establish much of a tactical team so the sniper is the next best application until additonal officers have time to arrive. It goes without saying that the small department has a very small budget, especially for new and unexplored applications surrounded by a crew that started before the tactical ways. Any help or advice on a cheaper rifle I can apply for tactical means would be much appreciated.[/QUOTE

90% plus of the sniper shots taken by domestic police officers are at ranges under 100 yards, so 308 Winchester Match will suffice. Zero the weapon (point of aim is point of bullet impact) at 100 yards.

If you are under budget restraints then I would advise purchasing a Reminton 700 SPS @ $681.00 MSRP, or a Savage 10FP @ $649 MSRP. A lot of things wrong, and a lot of things right with both designs, but they are affordable and serviceable sniper rifles that meet the missions parameters.

A full length Picatinny rail to be both a base for the tactical rings and to stiffen the receiver.

Don't scrimp on the optics. If you can't see it with clarity under any conditions, you can't shoot it, period. Get at least a Leupold Mark4, 4.5x14x50mm LR/T M1 riflescope (yes it is more than the rifle costs) with the Duplex reticle. The scope is well enough made so that it will box the target consistently, and will therefor give precise 1/4 MOA adjustments per click.

You don't need or want a Mil Dot, or Tactical Milling, or ART (Automatic Ranging) type scope for this mission. An un-cluttered reticle is best, and if you chronograph your rifle with your issue ammunition, with the help of a ballistics program you will know your exact scope adjustments necessary to be able to hold dead on at ranges beyond 100 yards. Good quality 3rd Generation Optic Glass (low light dispersion) with a large (50mm) objective lens, and a 30mm body diameter will give good light transmission, with no glare, and allow you to use the scope at night for the ranges and conditions that you will likely face.

That will at least get you into a serviceable and affordable sniper weapons system that can be incrementally upgraded as time goes by and money is allocated to increase your departments SpecOps capabilities.

Dillinger 03-22-2008 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longshot (Post 19070)
Has anyone had a chance to play with one of these yet? I'm considering getting one for tactical shooting for my department. Also curious about the SPS model. Let me know if you guys have any input.

I realize that this might be coming a little late, so if you have already made your purchase, I apologize and wish you the best.

The information given is sound, and any well built rifle will do what you need it to do, but there is a variable you must factor in before the purchase and that is: If you ever have to pull trigger and justify your decision in court.

Most police involved shootings occur at a range of 86 yards or 87 yards according to the last stats I saw from the FBI. Several departments here in Washington State where I live won't even green light a shooter out past 100 yards unless it is an "extreme" case. So any big bore battle rifle or super sniper gun in something over .308 caliber isn't going to be necessary.

Every police department that we do business with in Puget Sound, including State and local departments, all have the same basic rifle. It's a .308 caliber, ( almost ALWAYS Remington ) 20 inch or 22 inch barrel with a 4.5x14 ( usually Leupold )mounted on top and they shoot pretty much Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills. There is a reason beyond just the fact that it's the most basic platform, and that is it's easily defendable in court should a shot ever need to be taken.

When a police sharpshooter here takes a shot, regardless of condition, the weapon is taken from him/her and put into evidence pending an investigation. If the investigation is found to be "just" the weapon is submitted to an "approved" armorer for inspection, a report is generated, and then returned to service. If the shooting is questionable, then the weapon is submitted to an "approved" armorer and a report is generated and then the whole mess gets put in a cabinet somewhere pending a trial if it's needed. In the shop were I hang out and put in some part time apprentice work, we have had to do several of these reports and they are always a serious matter because what you are saying is "Yes, the weapon is in perfect condition" or "This sharpshooter was not taking care of his weapon and negligence was found". No small deal I assure you.

Now, if you have the exact same rifle that 800+ other police departments around the country are using, the chances of the equipment itself getting called into question should "over penetration" occur or if, God help you, you missed, will be pretty slim. But, what if you had something obscure that you have put together on your own?

Say you choose to go with an oddball caliber, or you hand load your own ammo because you have been doing it years and you know you can drive tacks with it? That will be called into question should you ever need to justify what happened. "Do you mean to tell me, Mr. Sharpshooter, that even though every other department in the nation is shooting a .308 with factory ammo, YOU made the decision to go with ( X caliber ) that YOU handload yourself?" Don't think it won't happen, especially if there are big bucks on the line for some bottom feeder lawyer looking to make a name for himself.

I would strongly suggest getting an approved list from your department, they all generate one if you can find who's filing cabinet it's in, as to what they recommend and will stand behind. I am sure there are several very qualified 'smiths in your area who can help customize the weapon to your needs, but I would make damn sure that your department will stand behind the choice prior to ever having to use it.

If you need some contact info, or some specs, shoot me a PM and I will put you in touch with my armorer who can give you more information than you probably need. :D

D

Dillinger 03-22-2008 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolosniper (Post 19384)
The CheyTac is too expensive, and way to much cartridge (in any configuration - 408, 375, 338) for the application.

I have rebuilt a large number of the SPS rifles, and there will be very little difference in any of the factory offerings from Remington as they are all built with a stock action and barrel as the heart and soul of the weapon. If you luck out and end up with a "good" barrel (rotary hammer forged barrels are anything but consistent), it will shoot pretty good out of the box. If not, then you won't be real happy. The US Army isn't extatic about the M24 for that very reason. I do believe that Remington is going to have to scramble to keep that contract.


Agreed. ^ Knows what he is talking about.

I would agree as well that Remington needs to do some in house quality control to keep that government contract.

cpttango30 04-09-2008 08:31 PM

For a police sniper who's shots are within 200 yards. I would get a Remington Model 700 police (Now the XCR) in 223. The 223 will do the job just fine. There is really no need to be lobbing 168gr bullets for only 100 to 200 yard shots. Or you could get the Rem M700 VSF in 223 or 308.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_VSF_specs.asp

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_XCR_compact_tactical.asp

I myself would stay the hell away from that 70 VTR it has that crappy injection molded plastic stock that comes on the SPS. I would make sure to get a rifle with a durable stock. That VTR stock is not durable at all.


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