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Old 12-07-2010, 08:30 PM   #11
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One portion of the topic that always seems to be forgotten is Newer is not always better. Most old rifles, We are talking early 1900's through 1965 are true shooters and pieces of art in their own way, better quality also. My Savage is a great rifle, so is my Howa, but for some reason, no one wants the old classics. If you read my posts, I love my Classic Mauser '96 and '98 action hunting rifles. You really don't need a new whizz bang magnum caliber to hunt with. Do I need to shoot over 400 yards? Nope, I'm a hunter. I am also a shooter. Can I hit a target at 600? Yes. Will I take a shot at 600 yards on a Whitetail, no. The 2 biggest animals I've ever taken were within 35 yards. Most people don't take the time to shoot enough bullets down range at distance to make an ethical shot. They don't really know what their limits or the limits of their equipment is. Try packing into the Rockies in the Fall, it is always snowing or will snow from Sept 1 on. It can be very cold or 60 degrees. Sleep on the ground and eat minimal food for a few days, you'll be surprised at how bad you really are. I find my old, outdated rifles and calibers really shine when it gets bad. I always see posts about stainless and synthetic combos. I have never used one on a hunt. If I had a choice of Firearms for a Grizzly hunt it would be an open sight 9.3x62 or .416 Rigby in an open sight Mauser. The really big problem is because people think the rifle is the balls and uber accurate, they are, and can take any thing that walks at range, even if neither is up to the task. Shooting from a bench is not shooting. Sorry for the rant.

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Old 12-08-2010, 09:43 PM   #12
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Agreed the hunter needs to hunt and be able to shoot in field conditions. It is nice to know that there is a cold bore shot capability with the weapon of choice too.

Here's today's cold bore shot at 50 yards with my savage edge in .308, which is currently zero'd at 50 yards to shoot in my backyard shooting range, so i can check zero and shoot it frequently. It shoots the same as my Savage edge in .223, which i took my deer with this year. Confidence in an accurate rifle, both cold-bore and once it's warm from multiple shots is the reason i could use my little gun for deer before i even bought my new one. the .223 wasn't my first choice, for deer, but it was a last minute invite, it was what I had, and it worked great because it was accurate and i could shoot it. Speaks well for the new rifles i think.

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Old 12-09-2010, 01:40 AM   #13
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Excellent article ,thank you.

Dan

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Old 12-09-2010, 02:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post
Agreed the hunter needs to hunt and be able to shoot in field conditions. It is nice to know that there is a cold bore shot capability with the weapon of choice too.

Here's today's cold bore shot at 50 yards with my savage edge in .308, which is currently zero'd at 50 yards to shoot in my backyard shooting range, so i can check zero and shoot it frequently. It shoots the same as my Savage edge in .223, which i took my deer with this year. Confidence in an accurate rifle, both cold-bore and once it's warm from multiple shots is the reason i could use my little gun for deer before i even bought my new one. the .223 wasn't my first choice, for deer, but it was a last minute invite, it was what I had, and it worked great because it was accurate and i could shoot it. Speaks well for the new rifles i think.


Sorry, but 50 yards is nothing. That is .22lr range. I'll do that w/ my Howa .308 at 200 yards. Oh wait, you were using a bench/rest! I'll post some pics of 75 year old rifles and groups. They most likely cost the same as your Savage. It is 16 degrees here. I bet I can outshoot you w/ 16 degree temps and 15MPH winds. Cold bore, off hand. Make the target moving? I'm game. Winner takes the losers rifle! I'll shoot an open sight rifle. I've been shooting since I'm 11. Started in NRA smallbore. No support except me (no rest, bench). An accurate rifle is only 1/3 of the equation. Glad Savage is still making a fine rifle, but you are late to the party on that. I keep reading about Savage and cheap Savage rifles. I don't think I'd ever consider buying one again. I do believe most is BS. JMHO
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:35 AM   #15
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jp you spoke of the old and it brought back a memory of a rifle i use to ahve years ago,more than i want to remeber. it was a 98 mauser, bolt face reworked for a rimmed cartidge with a douglas bbl on it chambered in 219 Ackley Improved Zipper, god i wish i still had the old girl she sure shot those ragged holes all day long.

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Old 12-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #16
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There's no doubt there are some accurate shooters from times gone by but even the cheap rifles seem to shoot great now. That was not always the case. Maybe some rifle that cost about the same as a new Savage could shoot very well but inflation has changed what $400 is worth these days and that Edge is a lot cheaper than
$400.

IMO accuracy dropped off for many guns from the period when Remington and Winchester dominated the shooting sports. They still do in some ways of course but I think Savage is the undisputed king of the modern rifle. You can buy or build a better shooting Savage for less money than an equally accurate rifle from pretty much any other company. There are some great shooters from other companies too but I think Savage will get you there cheaper and I think they can sell you a world class shooter for a lot less than a customer builder can put one together. The results of F class shooting seem to bear that out. Savage is beating the pants off custom built rifles with off the rack rifles. That is an amazing thing IMO. Savage didn't create any magic to build those rifles. They just copied what the custom builders were doing and sold you the parts you wanted right from the start. It's no doubt more expensive to buy a Savage that's as ready to shoot as their F class rifles but still it's way cheaper than a custom rifle. And with a couple of mods you can really have an incredibly good shooting rifle if you do buy a top of the line Savage.

I have several Savage rifles as you might have guessed. I've always known them to make quality rifles at all price points. My early 50's, single shot .22 Stevens is as accurate as any .22 I own. But my early 90's Savage 110 in .30-06 just isn't as accurate as my Savage 12 LRPV single shot with the target action. That rifle has made me look like Annie Oakley (well sorta - you know what I mean ). It's just so easy to shoot accurate that it freaks me out. And I know it could get better with a better trigger. It "only" goes down to 12 oz's before it starts having problems with the AT kicking in all the time. An SSS trigger would get me down much lower which should make it more accurate. But it shoots better than any rifle I've ever picked up the way it is. I can shoot a 3" group at a quarter of a mile. Considering there aren't many places to even practice shooting that far around my area that's pretty good for me. I don't have much experience shooting that far. And I know it will do better if I practice more.

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Old 12-09-2010, 03:53 PM   #17
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Out of the Box Accuracy
Can Minute of Angle (MOA) Really Be True?


by Paul Helinski & Ben Becker

Pick up just about any gun magazine these days and you will see ads for MOA accuracy, guaranteed, out of the box. MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle. It seems like a great selling point and I’m sure it sells a lot of guns, but I wondered if the claims were actually true. If you don’t understand MOA it is understandable. what does a fraction of a circle have to do with the accuracy of a rilfe? But we’ll get to that.


Just to clarify,....... 1/360th of a circle would be 1 DOA (); 1 DEGREE of angle, 1 MOA is 1/21600th of a circle. 360 degrees in a circle, 60 minutes in each degree.

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Old 12-09-2010, 06:05 PM   #18
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Savage's are excellent rifles, anyone who disagrees with that is either biased blind or dumb. It is true that they have been absolutely murdering the competition in f class and that may be hard to take for some people who spent $4000 or more on their custom built 30lb good for nothing but benchrest shooting target rifle. But facts are facts. I like 'old school' guns a damn lot my self but im not going to dispute that a modern firearm is superior in the accuracy department at the very least.

I would be interested to see a test of the Thompson/Center Icon Warlord, the shooters bible claims it will shoot .5 MOA out of the box and I wonder if it will outperform the claims like the regular Icon did. I would never buy one because if im going to spend $2700 on a rifle its going to shoot .50BMG and have been made just up the road (Berret) but it would still be interesting to know. Also a test on the high end Savage's would be nice too.

Stay away from the R700's until Remmington stops making garbage that blows up in your face when you turn the safety on (flame on guys :P).

On a side note, nice article. It was enlightening to read about guns I had never considered to be tac drivers. Any gun that will put holes through holes and has a safety thats safe to use (ironic i know but apparently needs to be said) and costs less than a grand is an excellent rifle in my books.

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Old 12-09-2010, 06:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Wow, keep the feedback coming guys.
Thanks for the interesting read. I don't know either of the author's but as they are paid to write, it would appear they did a great job.

I am afraid my old friend this is a topic that I am not going to touch any further with a 10 foot pole.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
MOA means “minute of angle,” which is 1/360th of a circle.
Really it is minute of Arc not angle. But who is splitting hairs.

I think a lot has to do with the machine equipment out today and the use of computer controlled cutting heads.

Old rifle were sure works of art doesn't mean that current firearms art not the same work of art. They just take a different route to get to home plate.

I am with JD on not really touching this one.
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