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Old 10-04-2011, 01:50 AM   #11
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Part of the switch to intermediate cartridges after WW2 was because iron sights aren't accurate beyond 200 yards. Why give a soldier a heavy battle rifle capable of accuracy well beyond that if the sights aren't up to it? But photos that I see of the troops nowadays shows them all with an ACOG on their rifle. So now perhaps the inverse is true - modern solders have the capability of engaging targets well beyond the effective range of their rifles. Time to bring those M-14s out of mothballs and trick them out with modern sights?

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Old 10-04-2011, 02:05 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jpattersonnh
Bushmaster introduced the ACR, Not Remington. Can you say Fishing!!!!
Actually the ACR was originally introduced by Magpul Industries as the Magpul Masada. Bushmaster soon after bought the rights to it for mass production. Remington bought the rights to it not to long ago.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:08 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Snakedriver View Post
Despite what the nay sayers have to say, the AR-15 system and its spawn have been in use in the military for nearly 50 years with a great deal of success and its killed ten & tens of thousands of our enemy quite effectively. Just as dead as they would be if they were shot with a .30-06.
That is 100% correct, plenty of folks bitching about the platform and cartridge, but not usually the ones wiping out enemy troops with it. Today's M-4 is a magnificent weapon system.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakedriver View Post
Despite what the nay sayers have to say, the AR-15 system and its spawn have been in use in the military for nearly 50 years with a great deal of success and its killed ten & tens of thousands of our enemy quite effectively. Just as dead as they would be if they were shot with a .30-06.

Most military engagements take place at ranges not exceeding 300 yards, which is well within the limitations of the 5.56mm NATO round. I'll never understand why so many insist on trying to turn the 5.56 into a long range sniper round.

I have to believe that if the military could come up with a better caliber and design for their individual soldier carried weapon, they would have by now. Look at how quickly they dumped the .30-40 Krag in times past.

Yes, if you choose to misapply the weapon into a role it was never intended you'll come away disappointed, but when used for what it is it has performed admirably.

ETA: BTW, between the aviation assets and the Rangers in Somolia we killed over 10,000 Somoli's in the now famous "Blackhawk Down" incident. I'd say someone's weapons were being effective. I also don't believe that anyone is going to get up after being shot with a 5.56 round from an M4 at close range. I've seen the wounds, it 'aint gonna happen.

Therein lies the problem. The 5.56 simply isn't a heavy enough bullet to be a reliable man stopper at extreme ranges. I have no complaints about it at less than 250-300 meters, it served me well in Afghanistan and Iraq, and my ranges were always less than 250, except for once.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakedriver
Despite what the nay sayers have to say, the AR-15 system and its spawn have been in use in the military for nearly 50 years with a great deal of success and its killed ten & tens of thousands of our enemy quite effectively. Just as dead as they would be if they were shot with a .30-06.

Most military engagements take place at ranges not exceeding 300 yards, which is well within the limitations of the 5.56mm NATO round. I'll never understand why so many insist on trying to turn the 5.56 into a long range sniper round.

I have to believe that if the military could come up with a better caliber and design for their individual soldier carried weapon, they would have by now. Look at how quickly they dumped the .30-40 Krag in times past.

Yes, if you choose to misapply the weapon into a role it was never intended you'll come away disappointed, but when used for what it is it has performed admirably.

ETA: BTW, between the aviation assets and the Rangers in Somolia we killed over 10,000 Somoli's in the now famous "Blackhawk Down" incident. I'd say someone's weapons were being effective. I also don't believe that anyone is going to get up after being shot with a 5.56 round from an M4 at close range. I've seen the wounds, it 'aint gonna happen.
I'm not saying change from a 5.56 to a 7.62. What I'm saying is change to round that can knock a man down with one shot. The problem with the 5.56 is that it goes extremely fast and has deep penetration which is fine except for that it is such a small bullet that it just flows right through the person. It doesn't tumble. A 6.8 has the penetration of a 5.56 with the knockdown power of a larger round. Look at the ballistics of both rounds and you will see what I meam
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wambli

That is 100% correct, plenty of folks bitching about the platform and cartridge, but not usually the ones wiping out enemy troops with it. Today's M-4 is a magnificent weapon system.
I personally was a huge fan of the AR-15 until my uncle ( who was a marine for 20 years) brought all of this to my attention. I had had no personal experience with the weapon at that point. Not trying to be disrespectful but he was wiping out enemy troops with it and he didn't like it. You would be surprised how many American soldiers agree with him. The platform was revolutionary at it's time but now there are evident changes to be made to the system that we have been using for 50 years.
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by tierone View Post
I had had no personal experience with the weapon at that point.
Thanks, all I need
to know.
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gator45

Thanks, all I need
to know.
That was only part of the answer later on I got ahold of the weapon and confirmed all that he had told me.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:15 AM   #19
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The M855 ammo is too stable. It drills through. The M193 was not as stable, and tended to tumble and yaw. Though the lighter bullet of the two, the 55gr M193 causes much more traumatic wounds on soft targets.

I'd like to agree that the DI system is not reliable, but it is boringly so. DI works, and it works damn near flawlessly.

The original early M16s had problems related to the ball powder used in the ammo, and from a lack of chrome plated chambers and bores. Today, the M16 just plain works.

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Old 10-04-2011, 05:21 AM   #20
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I too dislike the AR's I like my Colt for plinking, but as far as defense I don't like it. I would prefer to carry an M14 over the M4 or M16 it maybe be a heavy SOB but at least I know that when I hit someone with it there going down. In some cases the AK47 is better then the M16 it may not have the range but for CQB it's great.

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