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Old 06-12-2014, 02:35 PM   #11
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John,

In this case I know the guy he is one of my friends son in law. And knowing him it was the cool thing to do to get a cool chicks dig it! 338 Lapua Mag. Rifle. But honestly after he shot it a few times I think it was too much gun for him. Since he made comments about recoil. It acrually is not that bad at all with the recoil pad on it and the muzzle break!
Anyway, thanks to TX for his advice also but the $2000 price tag for the Night Force would stretch my budget just a tad since I also needed a good set of Rings and Butler Creek Lens Covers! I know the Night Force Scopes are fine scopes no doubt. But settled for a new Leupold MK-4 3.5X10 scope at around $1200 plus had to buy good 30MM steel rings at about $150 since the Millett had 35MM Rings on it. I called a friend at Leupold and he advised the scope would be fine for the 338 Lapua. And many of them were presently in service on the military's 50 BMG Rifles. I had shot several MK-4s while with some Seal Team Snipers several years ago and they had them on the 50 BMG McMillans and Barrett Rifles. Had not heard any complaints on them. I do have a Leupold M-1 LR on my 40X Sniper rifle in 308 but obviously it does in no way have the recoil of the 338! Hope to get back on the range by the end of next week? Thanks to all for the advice and info! The rifle groups well but the scope was trashed just could not adjust it! I will send a range report when I get things back together.

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Old 06-12-2014, 03:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdusmc View Post
A 3" 12 gage slug has a lot of ft lbs of recoil. More than a lot of large cal rifles, However if plotted on a graph showing time and ft lbs of recoil. A shot gun's recoil does not increase as fast as a rifle with the same amount of recoil. This is noticed by the shooter as a very fast hit from the rifle and more of A shove by the shot gun, even though the total ft lbs are the same. not to say that a shot gun's recoil does not hurt, but a large cal rifle with the same total ft lbs will hurt worse.

How would this effect a scope? I have never seen the results of a test. My guess is that the rifle would be more likely to damage a scope
A 12 ga 3" slug generates over 77 pounds of recoil. Only a 50 cal BMG gets close to 70 lb of recoil and you have a 30 lb gun to soak up that recoil. A Mossberg 500 loaded with slugs weighs 8 lb. A 338 lapua magnum generates 41lb of recoil with a heavy rifle to soak it up. I am sorry but your math is off.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:11 PM   #13
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John

You are correct on the 12ga. 3.5 mag rounds! They will wreck a normal scope faster than the 338. The Millett is on it's way back to Millett today. Hopefully it is not damaged that bad. I think due to the recoil the reticle was sticking. I tapped on it this morning and it began tracking again. Still sending it back for inspection and or repair! Guess it just can't stand the recoil of the 338 Lapua Mag. Probably even now it would be OK on a 308 or other normal rifle? In the 18 lb. recoil area! Anyway, I will be waiting to see what they say after the evaluation and inspection of the scope.
And if those have never shot a 12ga. 3.5 mag shell it is simply a great amount of recoil! A buddy of mine bought one who thought he needed one to kill whitetail deer!! Put an average priced scope on it and in about 10 rounds the scope was trashed when he was zeroing it with slugs.


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Old 06-12-2014, 09:29 PM   #14
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You can run cheap scopes on a shotgun but they have to be fixed power. I put a BSA on my first shotgun because I wasn't sure a slug could be accurate. It was plenty accurate and surprisingly the BSA held up for close to 10 years. Finally the ring broke which wiped out the scope. I sent the old scope and $10 to BSA. BSA sends me back a much nicer scope that is nitrogen filled and sturdy, it even has usable adjustments on it. I got some steel rings for the new scope and it has been great. A 12ga with good sabots has a range of 200 yards. 4x is plenty for 200 yards.

Other companies make 24x scopes that will give a nightforce all it wants in terms of reliability. You won't have to spend $2k to get that reliability either. What you are really paying for on the fixed power scopes is repeatable adjustments and enough motion in the scope to dial in on a target.

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Old 06-13-2014, 01:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
Other companies make 24x scopes that will give a nightforce all it wants in terms of reliability. You won't have to spend $2k to get that reliability either. What you are really paying for on the fixed power scopes is repeatable adjustments and enough motion in the scope to dial in on a target.
J.D., Very few cheap scopes will last to the recoil impulse that a 338 Lapua Magnum dishes out,and most cheaper scopes won't come anywhere near having enough adjustment range to shoot at longer ranges,even with a 20 moa rail.

There are a few cheaper scopes like the Sightron SIII,Vortex Viper PST,Weaver Tactical series,Leupold Mark IV that can handle it,but they are all around $1k or more.
Nightforce is far from the top of the line,but they have a real life experience for dependability of harsh use with large caliber weapons.

A fixed power scope is great for target shooting,but mirage can be a monster at times with a high magnification scope,and many times a variable powered scope works better.

Cheap scopes just don't cut it when you shoot long range or large calibers!
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:16 PM   #16
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First we discussed 3" 12 ga slug recoil, then a 3 1/2 " 12 ga slug was brought into the theory. I will admit that I have shot 6 or 7 3"mag 15 pellet buckshot loads in a single shot 12 ga. never any 3 inch slugs
John deer stated. That a 50 cal at 30 lbs weight only comes close to the 71 lbs recoil produced by a 8 lb shot gun with a 3' slug.

Think about this statement, I do not know the weight of the slug but 50 cal FMJ weigh over 700 grains or about 1 and 1/10 ounce. add the powder charge and it is close to 1 1/2 oz.
this is launched to about 2,800 fps in about 30 inches. the formula for pounds of energy is greatly influenced by volicity.

in my former statement I mentioned the much faster curve in time for rifles to reach their max lbs of recoil by rifles compared to shotguns. this is why you can shoot shotguns with less felt recoil even though the max recoil is more than a rifle with the same amount of discomfort.

my conclusion is that you are comparing apples to oranges. I do not dispute what you said about what will break what scopes because I have no knowledge of this.

Want to get into a big theory discussion on breaking scopes, try various rifle scopes on a pellet gun, you will break some good ones.
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Old 06-16-2014, 04:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdusmc View Post
First we discussed 3" 12 ga slug recoil, then a 3 1/2 " 12 ga slug was brought into the theory. I will admit that I have shot 6 or 7 3"mag 15 pellet buckshot loads in a single shot 12 ga. never any 3 inch slugs
John deer stated. That a 50 cal at 30 lbs weight only comes close to the 71 lbs recoil produced by a 8 lb shot gun with a 3' slug.

Think about this statement, I do not know the weight of the slug but 50 cal FMJ weigh over 700 grains or about 1 and 1/10 ounce. add the powder charge and it is close to 1 1/2 oz.
this is launched to about 2,800 fps in about 30 inches. the formula for pounds of energy is greatly influenced by volicity.

in my former statement I mentioned the much faster curve in time for rifles to reach their max lbs of recoil by rifles compared to shotguns. this is why you can shoot shotguns with less felt recoil even though the max recoil is more than a rifle with the same amount of discomfort.

my conclusion is that you are comparing apples to oranges. I do not dispute what you said about what will break what scopes because I have no knowledge of this.

Want to get into a big theory discussion on breaking scopes, try various rifle scopes on a pellet gun, you will break some good ones.
A 12ga 2 3/4" 300 gr sabot comes out of the barrel at 2,200 fps. The sabot is very comparable to a 45/70 in energy and range.

In fact, the early sabots were a 50 cal bullet wrapped in plastic. They didn't have a lot more range than a rifled slug but you didn't have to lob it with a huge arc to hit a target at 100 yards.

A 3" rifled slug weighs one ounce. It comes out of a 24" barrel at 1,700 fps and packs a wallop at short range.

I know a pellet gun has a forwards and backwards recoil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Txhillbilly View Post
J.D., Very few cheap scopes will last to the recoil impulse that a 338 Lapua Magnum dishes out,and most cheaper scopes won't come anywhere near having enough adjustment range to shoot at longer ranges,even with a 20 moa rail.

There are a few cheaper scopes like the Sightron SIII,Vortex Viper PST,Weaver Tactical series,Leupold Mark IV that can handle it,but they are all around $1k or more.
Nightforce is far from the top of the line,but they have a real life experience for dependability of harsh use with large caliber weapons.

A fixed power scope is great for target shooting,but mirage can be a monster at times with a high magnification scope,and many times a variable powered scope works better.

Cheap scopes just don't cut it when you shoot long range or large calibers!
You must have missed the post about a BSA scope holding up for over 10 years on a shotgun. The rings finally broke and took the scope with them. I have a new BSA scope that never fogs up and handles the recoil of a shotgun that is only twice as much as a 338. I must be charmed with cheap scopes. I have a simmons masterpiece on my 22 wmr. I can bolt it on my 30/06 and it will hold up just fine. I had the Masterpiece on my shotgun while the BSA was being serviced. The scope held zero just fine.

Millet will fix your scope. Believe it or not a Millet scope is a Simmons. It comes off the same production line, uses the same glass, prism and tube. The difference is the Millet has much better adjustment knobs. You would be amazed at the high end scopes that use the same glass as a Simmons. What do I know? I only live a few miles from the main office of Sightron and eat breakfast with many of the employees.

What is considered a cheap scope today (under $200) was a $1,000 plus scope 20 years ago. They managed to make a lot of 1,000 yard shots with those "cheap" scopes. In fact, a $200 scope of today has better glass and is sealed much better than any scope of 20 years ago.

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Old 06-16-2014, 08:48 AM   #18
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03: I want you to know I'm very Jealous right now, because I've wanted a 338 for about 2 years now! Please let us know of your continued Saga with this gun. Maybe in '15 I will take that leap...if there is any $ left over from the AR10 I want..


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Old 07-08-2014, 09:33 PM   #19
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Well Finally!
Got the new Leupold MK-4 Scope Mounted on the Savage Model 111 338 Lapua Mag this week. The Millett is at Bushnell getting fixed after the Old Girl wrecked it!
Got is zeroed today and shot this three shot group at 100 yards off the bench.
Even though I will be reloading for it, I was very pleased with the performance of the Ammunition pictured below. In addition also pleased with the Savage Model 111 Rifle and it's performance. I did make an additional 1 MOA Adjustment "UP" after shooting the group to put it dead on at 100 yards for now. Probably could have use a 1/4 to the Right bit did not mess with that today. I will study and work with the desired trajectory and zero setting later. Here are the pictures of the target today. And the Ammunition I used. Not bad at all for factory ammunition. In fact I would highly recommend it to anyone!

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File Type: jpg Lapua Mag 3 Shot Group.jpg (22.8 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Lellier&Bellot Ammo.jpg (20.6 KB, 14 views)
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