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Mosin accuracy , reducing group size old school


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Old 12-08-2012, 04:12 PM   #31
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Josh, I can appreciate how much time that you have put into the making of this trigger. I like how you have shown your work in the pictures. I have been working on my triggers too, mostly squaring up the sear and honing it, and thinning the spring. I have even tried a "Finn" trigger from e-Bay. I think that some guy was just trying out the market, because I never saw him again, and the trigger didn't impress me as being original. Other guys are trying to sell "Trigger jobs" that involve putting a washer under the sear spring. I think that this idea just shortened the trigger pull without making the spring lighter. Depending on the inherent looseness of a given rifle, I can see problems of accidental discharge on dropping being a problem, as the sear doesn't have to move as much surface to disengage. Combined with a loose action, if the rear of the bolt is lifted away from the sear, the rifle may go off.
My point being, there are a lot of us who are tinkering around with the triggers, and some guys trying to make money selling the results. I don't think they are making any money at it. I, on a whim, went out and bought a trigger and sear from a guy who was selling Finn parts, who actually lived in Finland. After all my work at making at trying to make a Finnish-style Mosin trigger, and trying other touted quick fixes, The original Finn trigger and sear have been the best.
So my second point is, I don't think that you will make any real money at this. So don't get so tied up with all this worry about patents, litigation, and sending work to China. From the pictures of the target, you are getting really nice groups. You must be doing something right. Enjoy what you are doing, and at the range, let the other guy wonder how you are shooting such good groups. If he asks, tell him about your trigger. If you have done everything to be sure the trigger is safe, if you are sure of your work, sell him one if he thinks he needs it. Don't worry about the global market.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:20 PM   #32
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Josh, I can appreciate how much time that you have put into the making of this trigger. I like how you have shown your work in the pictures. I have been working on my triggers too, mostly squaring up the sear and honing it, and thinning the spring. I have even tried a "Finn" trigger from e-Bay. I think that some guy was just trying out the market, because I never saw him again, and the trigger didn't impress me as being original. Other guys are trying to sell "Trigger jobs" that involve putting a washer under the sear spring. I think that this idea just shortened the trigger pull without making the spring lighter. Depending on the inherent looseness of a given rifle, I can see problems of accidental discharge on dropping being a problem, as the sear doesn't have to move as much surface to disengage. Combined with a loose action, if the rear of the bolt is lifted away from the sear, the rifle may go off.
My point being, there are a lot of us who are tinkering around with the triggers, and some guys trying to make money selling the results. I don't think they are making any money at it. I, on a whim, went out and bought a trigger and sear from a guy who was selling Finn parts, who actually lived in Finland. After all my work at making at trying to make a Finnish-style Mosin trigger, and trying other touted quick fixes, The original Finn trigger and sear have been the best.
So my second point is, I don't think that you will make any real money at this. So don't get so tied up with all this worry about patents, litigation, and sending work to China. From the pictures of the target, you are getting really nice groups. You must be doing something right. Enjoy what you are doing, and at the range, let the other guy wonder how you are shooting such good groups. If he asks, tell him about your trigger. If you have done everything to be sure the trigger is safe, if you are sure of your work, sell him one if he thinks he needs it. Don't worry about the global market.
I agree completely. I have both an M-27 and a Finn 91/30 that I don't think the triggers can be improved on. The Finns put a lot of effort into the redesign of the Mosin-Nagants and I believe that they got the most that can be had out of these great old rifles. If you want a rifle that shoots like a Finn, just buy a Finn.

I do have a lot of respect for Josh, his efforts, and his engineering skills, but I think he is trying to reinvent the wheel.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:20 PM   #33
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How do you tell the finns from the others? Do they bring much higher prices?

I have been looking at mausers lately at the gun shows, but reading all of these threads on the mosin-nagants has thinking I may want to look closer at them.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:28 PM   #34
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How do you tell the finns from the others? Do they bring much higher prices?

I have been looking at mausers lately at the gun shows, but reading all of these threads on the mosin-nagants has thinking I may want to look closer at them.
Corsair You will need to get some books, and do the research to be able to recognize what you are looking at in a Finnish Mosin. It would take a very long time to talk about all the features, action styles, stock styles. There are many things to know about the Soviet and Finn Mosins. Look it up. If you find one, and I have heard this said before, if it is stamped SA, I'd probably buy it. But that's just me talking. Good luck
Oh' while I'm here; do not give up on Mausers. The Germans put a lot of design into their rifles,(Paul Mauser) they put a lot of workmanship into them(admittedly some slave labor) and the Mauser is a kazillion times better than a Mosin. If I was freezing to death, and needed wood for the fire, I would throw all my Mosins in before.. well I guess they would be pulling my Mauser from my cold dead fingers.

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Old 12-10-2012, 01:09 AM   #35
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the main issue with using a mosin and original pu scope is eye relief. if you do not get the exact same eye relief each time your groups are going to be all over the place. paralax on the pu scope is set by how far your eye is from the scope. it is such a hard thing to do the soviets included a rubber eye piece for he updated pso type scops to get the same eye relief each time with the druganov.

this isnt as much of an issue with non soviet american style scopes.

then top it off with all the surplus ammo we get today is nothing but machine gun fodder and not even the proper weight or bullet design for the mosin. the actual russian snipers got the proper bullet weights and charge weights built with much greater care. every other line grunt got the machine gun ammo we buy by the crate load. so it isnt unreasonable to roll your own to get the best out of it since the average soviet using a scoped mosin didnt use the crappy machine gun ammo either
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:10 AM   #36
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I own a Mosin and can get about 1 inch groups at 100 yards. Several things I've noticed:
Have you been cleaning your gun after every time shooting? Some surplus ammo uses corrosive primer.
I've used Silver Bear Tulammo and Winchester rounds, and the Winchester shoots much better.
If you want to work on the harmonics of your barrel, get a limsaver barrel damper and then tune in the groups. Once you have it right, use a silver sharpie to part the spot and the ammo type so you can easily reference it in the future.
Hope this helps!
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=JonM;1045985]the main issue with using a mosin and original pu scope is eye relief. if you do not get the exact same eye relief each time your groups are going to be all over the place. paralax on the pu scope is set by how far your eye is from the scope. it is such a hard thing to do the soviets included a rubber eye piece for he updated pso type scops to get the same eye relief each time with the druganov.

this isnt as much of an issue with non soviet american style scopes.

then top it off with all the surplus ammo we get today is nothing but machine gun fodder and not even the proper weight or bullet design for the mosin. the actual russian snipers got the proper bullet weights and charge weights built with much greater care. every other line grunt got the machine gun ammo we buy by the crate load. so it isnt unreasonable to roll your own to get the best out of it since the average soviet using a scoped mosin didnt use the crappy machine gun ammo either[/QUOTE

You have hit this one on the head. I have two Mosin snipers that I have built, and after literally thousands,(or at least a thousand), rounds I have noticed the parallax effect in the PU scope, and by being more aware of it, have decreased the sizes of my groups. I still have a little problem getting the right spot weld close up on the scope, and this is kind of a stretch. It is almost like the stock is too long, and that has usually not been my experience with military surplus stocks , especially Soviet Block. I also agree that the 7.62mmx54 we get is very inconsistent, and more suitable for machine guns where you would prefer an opened group. This said, there is some ammunition from some countries that I feel is better, but can't make recommendations at this time. I can't remember. I was given a couple of bundles of rounds from a friend, and they were really good, but when I checked back with him, he can't remember where they came from. Probably some of that mythological "sniper" ammo that is supposed to exist out there
I reload this cartridge, and find that the performance is better. With the older Mosins, I have even had good results by using a .312 cal. bullet. Won't say what the groups size is because I will always get in trouble with the "I get better "two-shot groups than what you get" crowd. Because I have a shortage of actual, reloadable brass, I have dabbled with pulling the bullets on Soviet rounds, dumping the powder and adding my own weighed charges, but have found no real gain in doing so because I still had to use the inconsistent Soviet primers, and while the price of surplus is inexpensive, the price per round does go up when you do that. I have even tried some "heavy Ball" rounds. No joy.
I have come to accept that the Mosin sniper is old technology to be enjoyed. If you go back even further in times, Muzzle loaders couldn't approach what the Mosin could , that's why they switched, I guess. Oh that and that rapid reloading thing.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:06 PM   #38
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the main issue with using a mosin and original pu scope is eye relief. if you do not get the exact same eye relief each time your groups are going to be all over the place. paralax on the pu scope is set by how far your eye is from the scope. it is such a hard thing to do the soviets included a rubber eye piece for he updated pso type scops to get the same eye relief each time with the druganov.

this isnt as much of an issue with non soviet american style scopes.

then top it off with all the surplus ammo we get today is nothing but machine gun fodder and not even the proper weight or bullet design for the mosin. the actual russian snipers got the proper bullet weights and charge weights built with much greater care. every other line grunt got the machine gun ammo we buy by the crate load. so it isnt unreasonable to roll your own to get the best out of it since the average soviet using a scoped mosin didnt use the crappy machine gun ammo either
You have hit this one on the head. I have two Mosin snipers that I have built, and after literally thousands,(or at least a thousand), rounds I have noticed the parallax effect in the PU scope, and by being more aware of it, have decreased the sizes of my groups. I still have a little problem getting the right spot weld close up on the scope, and this is kind of a stretch. It is almost like the stock is too long, and that has usually not been my experience with military surplus stocks , especially Soviet Block. I also agree that the 7.62mmx54 we get is very inconsistent, and more suitable for machine guns where you would prefer an opened group. This said, there is some ammunition from some countries that I feel is better, but can't make recommendations at this time. I can't remember. I was given a couple of bundles of rounds from a friend, and they were really good, but when I checked back with him, he can't remember where they came from. Probably some of that mythological "sniper" ammo that is supposed to exist out there
I reload this cartridge, and find that the performance is better. With the older Mosins, I have even had good results by using a .312 cal. bullet. Won't say what the groups size is because I will always get in trouble with the "I get better "two-shot groups than what you get" crowd. Because I have a shortage of actual, reloadable brass, I have dabbled with pulling the bullets on Soviet rounds, dumping the powder and adding my own weighed charges, but have found no real gain in doing so because I still had to use the inconsistent Soviet primers, and while the price of surplus is inexpensive, the price per round does go up when you do that. I have even tried some "heavy Ball" rounds. No joy.
I have come to accept that the Mosin sniper is old technology to be enjoyed. If you go back even further in times, Muzzle loaders couldn't approach what the Mosin could , that's why they switched, I guess. Oh that and that rapid reloading thing.
get some of the winchester white box for the x54r its reloadable and closer to the actual pre 1900 bullet weight. ive got a psl and a true mosin sniper i load for both. ive had real good result from bullets meant for the 303 british.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:34 AM   #39
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JonM I will look to see if I can find any of that loading. Are they pricey? Have been reloading S&B and Privi Partisan. Expensive, but you get a lot of loadings out of them. Need some more cases as I have noticed is one or two of my cases have shown the beginings of case separation. I cut them in half, and there was a ring inside. Had switched to neck-only-sizing to slow this process, and try to conserve my cases. And it is easier to resize steel cases if you only do the neck. I wish I could find the right-sized Berdan primers. I would use steel cases over again. I have tons of them. I hear that there are some countries that use the smaller primer in this loading. Would like to hear which ones's they are, and if it is available. I use Berdan on my 8mm Mauser, but the primer is too small for the 7.62mmx54r. The bullet I use in my Mosin loads are also meant for the .303 (150gr FMJBT) I Think they work good, and the cases I mentioned earlier were the only two with problems of overpressure. Wish it would be warmer out again so I can get back out to "The Lab"
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:45 PM   #40
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All my Russian surplus uses 5.5mm Berdan primers if that helps any..?
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