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-   -   Mosin accuracy , reducing group size old school (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/mosin-accuracy-reducing-group-size-old-school-75036/)

HM2Grunt 10-25-2012 08:03 PM

Mosin accuracy , reducing group size old school
 
I have answered other threads about this, but have only received a little advice. I will start a new thread to see if I can get more exposure.
I have a 1930 Mosin 91/30 that I have put a PU scope on. I realize that the Soviets used hand-picked rifles to make into their snipers. I have "hand-picked" four of my own Mosins from various sources, but it's not as good as the factory selection probably was. The problem That I am experiencing with my home built sniper is the barrel, when it gets hot it tends to shoot more open groups. As I have described before: From a cold/clean barrel at 50yds; shots 1-5 produce a two inch group. Shots 6-10 tightened to about 1 1/2 inch. Shots 11-15 reduced further to the point where I can almost cover the group with 2 target pastsers. The shots 16-20 open to about 2 inches, with the successive 5 shot groups seeming to double in size. I let the barrel cool the time it takes to walk to the target to score it and return. It never got uncomfortably hot to touch. I had previously cork-bedded the receiver are because the WW2 stock was shrunken enough, that when I tightened the trigger guard screw, the receiver still seemed loose. The corking helped tighten the rifle up, and I free floated the barrel channel, and sanded down the spots on the handguard that showed evidence of contact.
The next trip to the range was no better in regards to group size after putting card stock under the barrel at the muzzle end.
Temp checks of the barrel, checked with a laser thermometer, were in conclusive, running about 85-86 degrees F, While my companion, banging away, had a temp of 104F, and he had a large group size, as I wood have expected.
I am trying to keep the rifle "old school" as much as possible without going to changes that I cannot undo such as fiberglass. Is there anyone with any ideas to help keep the group size down. I have safely worked the trigger and sear without over lightening it. I shoot from a rock steady rest position. The barrel on the Mosin is not shot out visually checked, but I have no way the really gauge it. The ammo is surplus 1982 Bulgarian, and I have had no problems with it, and some groups, as previously noted, have been very small Do I need to stop beating a dead horse, and get a newer stock, or there other things that I need to try to better support the rifle's receiver and barrel

nitestalker 10-25-2012 09:26 PM

I don't know what you expect from these old battle rifles? The facts are the Russian Snipers made all most all their kills at very close range. They hid in the rubble of Moscow and killed Nazis at 25 and 30 yards. Yes, there were some long shots but even the best snipers made there kills close up. The German scoped 98 Mauser 8X57 was a far better sniper rifle of the day. The Germans were trapped by the Russian Winter and were fish in the barrel.

The_Kid 10-25-2012 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HM2Grunt (Post 989550)
The ammo is surplus 1982 Bulgarian, and I have had no problems with it, and some groups, as previously noted, have been very small

At 50 yards, they are not "very small."

You need to find ammo that will work with your barrel's harmonics.

Look at all the stuff you have done and pondering to do, yet you are using the cheapest ammo on the planet... I assume.

I mean, cheap ammo is fine; as long as it is in tune with the rifle's harmonics.

HM2Grunt 10-25-2012 10:34 PM

Nitestalker Thanks for your reply. I had wondered, after seeing what I had written and sending it off, if I haven't been looking at this wrong. I really like this old rifle, and dearly love trying different things to make it accurate, but what can I really expect from a rifle that is 82 years old, what are people really getting with this old hardware now a days?

The_Kid 10-25-2012 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HM2Grunt (Post 989729)
but what can I really expect from a rifle that is 82 years old, what are people really getting with this old hardware now a days?

Here is a 94 year old rifle at 300 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...gun/125moa.jpg

That is with a corrosion damaged bore and iron sights.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...1bEddyBore.jpg

I rarely shoot groups over MOA with that rifle. My average group size at 200 yards is about the size of your 50 yard group.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...EddyShadow.jpg

I've never found a rifle that couldn't shoot sub-moa.

HM2Grunt 10-25-2012 11:09 PM

The_kid I have been using surplus Soviet block rounds because that is standard equipment for this kind of rifle, (and they are cheap) I have another sniper that I have fiber glassed and pillar bedded the receiver and stock, put on a Timney trigger,(I really like the safety) used a heavier, stiffer laminated stock and generally tried everything I have read and thought of to make it more accurate. I reload my own ammo. I don't have a chromo to determine what bullet speed the rifle likes yet, so I can't say the rounds are optimal, but it shoots good. Not 200-300yds good, but good. The 1930 rifle that I started this thread about is the one I wanted to see how good it would shoot "Old School", after getting all the "bells and whistles" out of my system with the first sniper. I still would like to know what others are getting for accuracy. I have seen the guy hitting the gong at 1000yds on You-tube, but I don't think he is shooting stock equipment. And I agree with you that the German Mauser was better. I have only a ZF sharp-shooter scope on my 98, and it shoots better that the Mosin with a four power scope, but the higher settings for range on it seem as hopeful as those on the Mosin.

HM2Grunt 10-25-2012 11:16 PM

The_kid That's fine, but they are not the same animal, and I correct myself if I mislead, an 82 year old Mosin. The manufacturing of the Mosin is not even close to the Eddystone. The Mosin was cheap and fast to make, and I immagine that is why you could not touch an Eddystone for what a Mosin costs today. I envy your owning one. Oh, and I noticed that you tweaked your ammo from issue rounds.

nitestalker 10-25-2012 11:31 PM

HM2, So true even though that Eddystone has a some what bad bore from the picture it should shoot OK. That said, 2 shots on a paper at any ranges proves nothing. If the shooter can provide 10 strings of 5 shot groups we would know how the Pattern 17 Rifle shoots?

You are correct in your expectations of the Nagant. Outside of using a JB Lapping and maybe a little bedding of the action there is very little you can do to improve a $90 dollar rifle. I have no idea what the post refered to concerning hormonics and a military barrel laden with hand guards bayo lugs and other hardware. It is hard to make a Dump truck into an Indy car.:)

HM2Grunt 10-25-2012 11:54 PM

nitestalker Thanks for you replies. You are right about a $90 rifle. For that much money, I only have to worry about hurting myself more than if I hurt the rifle by dinking around with ways to change a common, non-collectable. I am a frustrated gunsmith, retired, and have plenty of time to think, dink, and think about more ways to dink. I would truly like to be able to afford something like a Springfield, but I like to shoot big center fire, and the Mosin is so cheap to feed right now. And Mosins are fun to dink with.

nitestalker 10-26-2012 12:46 AM

HM2 I just knew you were a professional gun hand. As we get older it becomes more easy to seperate the wheat from the chafe. I also like shooting things modern nations have thrown away. I have had better luck with the K-31 Swiss 7.62X55 rifle. These are so accurate and so easy to reload for and shoot. We have a 1,200 meter range gongs. It is a great place to shoot the old battle rifles.:)


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