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Old 01-07-2014, 08:42 AM   #21
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Default Update on black patches after brushing

Here is an update for anyone interested and reading this post. I bought a new rifle, never fired (maybe test fired at the factory??). I bought a new phosphor bronze brush, never used. I got the same thing as described in my earlier posts. Clean patches, then black again after using the brush. The picture shows the results. The bottom row of three shows a dirty patch after brush, semi-dirty next patch, pretty clean third patch. The top three shows a repeat of the process. I think I can do that forever. I'm pretty convinced that black is an artifact of the cleaning and not coming from a dirty barrel. Details - stainless steel barrel, black-nylon-coated steel single-piece rod (Hmm) and bore guide, 5 strokes with a phosphor bronze brush wet with Hoppe's solvent (No. 9 regular or copper solvent, makes no difference) and wiped after each 5-stroke cycle, then followed with cotton patches soaked with the same solvent. Repeat to get black, gray white - black gray white - black, gray, white, etc.

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Old 01-07-2014, 11:32 AM   #22
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Here is an update for anyone interested and reading this post. I bought a new rifle, never fired (maybe test fired at the factory??). I bought a new phosphor bronze brush, never used. I got the same thing as described in my earlier posts. Clean patches, then black again after using the brush. The picture shows the results. The bottom row of three shows a dirty patch after brush, semi-dirty next patch, pretty clean third patch. The top three shows a repeat of the process. I think I can do that forever. I'm pretty convinced that black is an artifact of the cleaning and not coming from a dirty barrel. Details - stainless steel barrel, black-nylon-coated steel single-piece rod (Hmm) and bore guide, 5 strokes with a phosphor bronze brush wet with Hoppe's solvent (No. 9 regular or copper solvent, makes no difference) and wiped after each 5-stroke cycle, then followed with cotton patches soaked with the same solvent. Repeat to get black, gray white - black gray white - black, gray, white, etc.
cant see where an artifact sneaks in. Bore mirror shiny? Let it be. Or try a bore gel, let sit for 15 min. Then quit for sure.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:59 PM   #23
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You're the scientist, right? What is bronze? What is bronze phosphor?

I'm thinking it's an interaction between the brush and solvent.

Try this. After thoroughly cleaning your rifle, to the point that you're ready to put it away, wash your brush thoroughly with hot soapy water, then run it through with nothing but water on it. See what happens then, see if you get this black residue still.

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:48 PM   #24
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Have you ever used Brasso to polish a bit of brass- like a military dress belt buckle? The polishing cloth will turn BLACK.

And while a brass, bronze or nylon BRUSH will not wear out rifling, an improperly used cleaning rod CAN damage the rifling. Won't happen at once, but explains why OCD benchrest shooters clean from the breech to the muzzle, and use a bore guide and a GOOD rod.

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Old 01-07-2014, 07:54 PM   #25
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You're the scientist, right? What is bronze? What is bronze phosphor?

I'm thinking it's an interaction between the brush and solvent.

Try this. After thoroughly cleaning your rifle, to the point that you're ready to put it away, wash your brush thoroughly with hot soapy water, then run it through with nothing but water on it. See what happens then, see if you get this black residue still.
Yes. I am the scientist. According to Wikipedia, phosphor bronze is bronze (copper with about 3.5 - 10% tin) containing up to about 1% phosphorous. This composition is tough, strong, fine-grained and flows easily in the melt.

Since my last test was done with a new barrel and new phosphor bronze brush, it supports what I suspected that the black is an artifact of polishing and is not removing carbon from a dirty barrel.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:53 PM   #26
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Yes. I am the scientist. According to Wikipedia, phosphor bronze is bronze (copper with about 3.5 - 10% tin) containing up to about 1% phosphorous. This composition is tough, strong, fine-grained and flows easily in the melt.

Since my last test was done with a new barrel and new phosphor bronze brush, it supports what I suspected that the black is an artifact of polishing and is not removing carbon from a dirty barrel.
When science speaks, I listen. But I have not observed such thing in a hundred barrels cleaned with a dozen chemicals. The first patch after repeated brushing might turn a shade of gray but not black as you say. Would be interesting to have a chemistry lab analyze that patch.

Correction. The Mosin was an exception.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:25 AM   #27
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When science speaks, I listen. But I have not observed such thing in a hundred barrels cleaned with a dozen chemicals. The first patch after repeated brushing might turn a shade of gray but not black as you say. Would be interesting to have a chemistry lab analyze that patch.

Correction. The Mosin was an exception.
Mosins are. I never once pulled even a semi clean patch through mine. I... gave... up...
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:53 AM   #28
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If you are using aluminium cleaning rods or jags you can get a black oxide. Hoppe's #9 is a poor choice for serious cleaning. I would use with caution, J-B non-embedding emulsion bore cleaner. This will collect and hold any free metal residue in the bore. Particles of metal released by solvents will adhere to the bore before they can be flushed out. New barrels can hold this residual material after many cleanings. Carbon based residue may be adhering after cleaning.

And emulsion will hold residual copper, rust, carbon etc. and allow the bore to be flushed clear. You should also look at something like Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner. It is a little hard to analyze the problem without knowing the type and condition of the barrel . There are powder, primer and bullet considerations as well. This is a common problem when using Milsurp ammo.

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Old 01-08-2014, 12:49 PM   #29
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True about aluminum. The rod was steel, you said. Was your brush core braided aluminum? With shorter bristles there is plenty of exposure. Especially if you push a patch with a worn brush. The best ones are all copper. Try Dewey to rule out what I am guessing.

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Old 01-10-2014, 09:37 AM   #30
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Brushes are normal phosphor bronze. The cleaning rod is a high-quality Dewy rod, black-nylon-coated single-piece steel. Since the pesky black problem was observed with a new barrel and brush, I'm beginning to wonder if the black is coming from the nylon on the rod after years of use, but why just after brushing and not with a patch, I don't know. I do use a bore guide. I too would love to have the patches analyzed. I'm starting to accept though that the black is not coming from a dirty barrel.

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