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Old 12-06-2013, 02:38 AM   #11
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Looks like the reactions are pretty mixed so the discussion is very interesting. For those as compulsive as I am (I can't disagree with you trip286 but I like to think of it as thorough), here's more food for thought for those with the patience to think it through.

I spend about 3 hours cleaning, running about 5 stokes with a bronze brush, then wipe the brush with a paper towel. I follow with 3 to 5 patches of Hoppe's No. 9 letting the solvent soak in the barrel for a while between patches. I repeat this about 5 times. Patches come out clean. But each time I return to the brush, things turn black again, not green or blue. I tried a nylon brush just to see if it generated black like the bronze brush. It didn't. So, is the bore clean? Probably clean enough according to trip286 and he is probably right. But he also points out that, after polishing metals, he always wipes off a black or gray residue. So, is the bronze brush polishing the barrel, or vice-versa, and generating the black? He says that the residue is likely coming from the brush and I have read elsewhere that bronze brushes can give false positives, maybe for copper though and not carbon. Yes, trip286, what I am wondering is whether the black can be residue not related to a dirty barrel but rather from abrasion. Or is the bore still dirty like Axxe55 suggests. Do I need more hours of cleaning as he suggests because, according to him, powder residue comes out pretty easily and the patches should come out clean even after brushing. That makes sense too. But, Axxe55 you say some things that are confusing (not a criticism, just questions trying to figure this out). You say the black is usually copper residue reacting with the bore solvent and it it sometimes gray or green. Reaction products between ammonia and copper are blue or green. I don't think they could be black. Also, if this reaction is occurring, how do you get your patches to come out clean? Mercator also says that bronze brushes don't cause the patches to turn black. It's the carbon fouling.

So, maybe the debate continues. If you get black patches after brushing even after meticulous cleaning, is there still carbon in the barrel and it is still dirty OR is the barrel clean and the black come from the brush, probably from abrasion or polishing, not from a chemical reaction? I don't want to be compulsive. I just want to clean the barrel until it's clean and quit when it is. Any other comments? Anyone else want to let us know their experience?
it could be powder residue or lead or copper. lots of it depends on the bore solvent used. i get black on my batches and sometimes grey and sometimes green or blue in color. but until those patches come out clean, IMO, it's still dirty.

like i said, it varies. depends on a lot of variables, such as the bullets shot. the number of shots between cleanings, the powders used in the ammo, the rifle bore itself and many other things.

let me ask this, how new is the rifle and approximately how many rounds have been shot throughit if you have an idea?

if the rifle is new and not many shots have been fired through it, the barrel is still breaking in to some degree and polishing itself. the smoother the bore, as a general rule is much easier to clean.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:46 AM   #12
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If this is your normal routine, I'm sure you're getting it clean. Did you buy the rifle new? I bought a Mosin Nagant 91/30 once that never produced a clean patch. Since then, I've heard the condition of that bore referred to as a "sewer pipe". I call BS. I work in water supply, and I get to watch sewer clean outs pretty often (I ain't doing it, not in my job description. I do CLEAN water, not sewer). Sewer pipes are cleaner than the bore of my old Mosin, but it was accurate as hell.

If this is a new rifle, and you're following this routine, you should be getting it plenty clean. Just remember, wet, brush, swab, dry, light oil, and you should be good if your rifle is producing clean patches after that. Could you possibly get it cleaner? Hell yeah, there's no such thing as perfect.

Also think of this: carbon "bleeds" from metal sometimes. I've cleaned machine guns to white glove inspection standards many, MANY times, only to have the chamber and inside of the receiver coated in black the next time I draw it out of the armory. An NO, it wasn't being used by someone else between my conjugal visits with my hunny. It's just the nature of the beast.

How many rounds are you shooting in a session?
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:48 AM   #13
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Dex, if I'm understanding your dilemma, and I may not be, I would suspect that your bronze bristled brush is the culprit. You are an overzealous cleaner, nothing wrong with that, but you've probably run those bristles through ALOT of carbon fouling, and I suspect that when you run your dirty brush through your clean bore, you are redepositing some of the carbon fouling you just removed. My guess is that's why the next patch comes out black. So try this, run your brush through a dirty bore, then firmly run your finger against the bristles under a light. That dust you see flying off the bristles is the fouling you're trying to remove. Maybe cleaning the brush off with aerosolized brake cleaner in between passes might be an answer for you. That or investing in a bore scope. Even if you never see that perfectly white patch, I think your bore is probably fine.

Good luck!
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:08 AM   #14
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I've got my money on this ^^^^
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdIron44 View Post
Dex, if I'm understanding your dilemma, and I may not be, I would suspect that your bronze bristled brush is the culprit. You are an overzealous cleaner, nothing wrong with that, but you've probably run those bristles through ALOT of carbon fouling, and I suspect that when you run your dirty brush through your clean bore, you are redepositing some of the carbon fouling you just removed. My guess is that's why the next patch comes out black. So try this, run your brush through a dirty bore, then firmly run your finger against the bristles under a light. That dust you see flying off the bristles is the fouling you're trying to remove. Maybe cleaning the brush off with aerosolized brake cleaner in between passes might be an answer for you. That or investing in a bore scope. Even if you never see that perfectly white patch, I think your bore is probably fine.

Good luck!
An excellent point too. You don't go back in with a dirty brush. I rinse it with a blast of 90% alcohol or Gun Scrubber.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:19 AM   #16
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good point about the clean brush. somethings we do automatically and such a small detail that i overlooked in mentioning. i use a spray bottle with a degreaser in for cleaning my brush between brushings.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdIron44 View Post
Dex, if I'm understanding your dilemma, and I may not be, I would suspect that your bronze bristled brush is the culprit. You are an overzealous cleaner, nothing wrong with that, but you've probably run those bristles through ALOT of carbon fouling, and I suspect that when you run your dirty brush through your clean bore, you are redepositing some of the carbon fouling you just removed. My guess is that's why the next patch comes out black. So try this, run your brush through a dirty bore, then firmly run your finger against the bristles under a light. That dust you see flying off the bristles is the fouling you're trying to remove. Maybe cleaning the brush off with aerosolized brake cleaner in between passes might be an answer for you. That or investing in a bore scope. Even if you never see that perfectly white patch, I think your bore is probably fine.

Good luck!
You beat me to it! It has GOT TO BE the brush is no longer as clean as thought, and leaving residue.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:38 AM   #18
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You are more likely to wear out a barrel with a nylon brush than a bronze brush. I have seen monofilament fishing line cut through ceramic rod eyes that are hard enough to cut steel.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #19
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That said, more brushing with a clean brush after a clean patch will still pick up some black. There is no exact recipe for all guns at all times. Everyone's routine is a mix of experience and beliefs.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:52 PM   #20
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IME, keep that shiny new bore clean. Trying to clear it later sucks.

Used rifles, clear the soot, use your solvents,patches, brushes,etc.

I always use a lot of oil to cleanse between solvents, cleaners, and

pastes, and light oil on a barrel going for more shooting, heavy oil on a

barrel for storage.

One thing which causes me less sleepless nights is ATF.

Sponge in the red, let it soak till you can get back to it,

then run a patch or five. Oil, oil, oil.
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