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Old 08-30-2013, 03:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM

all rra rifles come with wylde chambers and are wilson barrels. wilson barrels (not wilson combat) are right up there with white oak and krieger and other top end makers. switching out a rra barrel your only moving sideways in quality.
I had read that RRA all came with Wylde chambers but mine was listed as ".556 NATO chamber" I was under the impression that meant a mil-spec chamber not Wylde. Thanks for clarifying that for me. The bone stock RRA comes with a 16" 1 in 9 chrome moly barrel. For long distance I thought you needed a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 and at least 18". Something like the RRA R3 fluted steel competition barrel.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:30 AM   #12
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I had read that RRA all came with Wylde chambers but mine was listed as ".556 NATO chamber" I was under the impression that meant the mil-spec chamber not Wylde. The bone stock RRA comes with a 16" 1 in 9 chrome moly barrel. For long distance I thought you needed 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 and at least 18".
the base models might be. not 100% but for the op's need i would opt for the wilson models.

twist rates kinda determine what bullets work best. any bullet 55-75 grain will get out to 600yards all of them go subsonic around the 700-800 mark depending on barrel and bullet combo. 14.5 barrels drop subsonic around the 600 mark.

20" is the ideal length for the 556/223 giving the best combo of balance and range. the longer 24" guns will reach just a scootch further but not enough to make any real diff for the extra weight heat and clumsiness.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM

the base models might be. not 100% but for the op's need i would opt for the wilson models.

twist rates kinda determine what bullets work best. any bullet 55-75 grain will get out to 600yards all of them go subsonic around the 700-800 mark depending on barrel and bullet combo. 14.5 barrels drop subsonic around the 600 mark.

20" is the ideal length for the 556/223 giving the best combo of balance and range. the longer 24" guns will reach just a scootch further but not enough to make any real diff for the extra weight heat and clumsiness.
The higher twist rate will stabilize the 75-90 grain competition rounds that actually go out to 1000 yards. 1 in 9 won't do it. 1 in 9 won't even stabilize the long 63 grain M856 (tracer) rounds past 100 yards. (Not that you would want to shoot tracers in a non chrome barrel...)
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:08 PM   #14
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The higher twist rate will stabilize the 75-90 grain competition rounds that actually go out to 1000 yards. 1 in 9 won't do it. 1 in 9 won't even stabilize the long 63 grain M856 (tracer) rounds past 100 yards. (Not that you would want to shoot tracers in a non chrome barrel...)
A 1-9 twist will stabilize a 75 gr bullet all day long. I shoot the 75 gr BTHP match and 75 gr A-Max bullets out of my 1-9 twist Savage 12 FLVSS all the time.
I don't know where you get your info,but you are wrong.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:00 PM   #15
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Buy an ar-15 and if you still want more distance save for an upper with longer range capabilities like a 20 inch 6.5 Grendel from what I've seen on the net it's a round capable of 1000 meter hits

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Old 08-30-2013, 03:31 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

A 1-9 twist will stabilize a 75 gr bullet all day long. I shoot the 75 gr BTHP match and 75 gr A-Max bullets out of my 1-9 twist Savage 12 FLVSS all the time.
I don't know where you get your info,but you are wrong.


Argue with their professional match shooters all day if you like, please note I said out to 1000 yards and 75-90 grains. I have seen M856s actually begin veering in mid air after somewhere around 100 yards being fired from a 16" 1 in 9 barrel.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:54 PM   #17
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Argue with their professional match shooters all day if you like, please note I said out to 1000 yards and 75-90 grains. I have seen M856s actually begin veering in mid air after somewhere around 100 yards being fired from a 16" 1 in 9 barrel.
The purpose of a tracer isn't to hit pin point targets its to direct fire when used in a rifle. Least that's what we used em for.

The phosphor component makes the round unstable in flight not so much the twist rate. As it burns it shifts balance in the bullet and things go nuts down range.

Personally I'll never put a tracer in any rifle I own chromed or not. I like my barrels

My rra nm ar15a2 is 1-8 my krieger precision build is a 1-8.8. I haven't found much they don't like other than 55grn airpulls. But that's got more to do with shtty surplus bullets with visibly off center cores....

Quality of the bullet has more to do with consistant accuracy than anything else.

Supposedly 16" 1-7 won't shoot 55grain well . My bcm is a moa shooter with a 16" barrel at 300 yards using quality 55grain bullets and consistant powder charges.

Each gun is different and need handloads worked up to get the absolute best results. I've seen that differences in ammo when dealing with factory crap is pretty huge even from stuff that's claimed to be "match" grade.

The problem I dont think lies with the twist rate being bad necessarily, but more the quality of the barrel to start with. Pretty much most 1-9 barrels aren't any great shakes and are aimed for the budget market because they perform decent enough with a very wide range of factory ammo. Not what I would consider target grade. More than good enough for the average guy trying to get an ar15 at a blue light special.

My wife had a dpms 1-9 16" it was a consistant 5" at 300yards with 75grain bullets. That's extremely good for a low end budget gun.
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM

The purpose of a tracer isn't to hit pin point targets its to direct fire when used in a rifle. Least that's what we used em for.

The phosphor component makes the round unstable in flight not so much the twist rate. As it burns it shifts balance in the bullet and things go nuts down range.

Personally I'll never put a tracer in any rifle I own chromed or not. I like my barrels

My rra nm ar15a2 is 1-8 my krieger precision build is a 1-8.8. I haven't found much they don't like other than 55grn airpulls. But that's got more to do with shtty surplus bullets with visibly off center cores....

Quality of the bullet has more to do with consistant accuracy than anything else.

Supposedly 16" 1-7 won't shoot 55grain well . My bcm is a moa shooter with a 16" barrel at 300 yards using quality 55grain bullets and consistant powder charges.

Each gun is different and need handloads worked up to get the absolute best results. I've seen that differences in ammo when dealing with factory crap is pretty huge even from stuff that's claimed to be "match" grade.

The problem I dont think lies with the twist rate being bad necessarily, but more the quality of the barrel to start with. Pretty much most 1-9 barrels aren't any great shakes and are aimed for the budget market because they perform decent enough with a very wide range of factory ammo. Not what I would consider target grade. More than good enough for the average guy trying to get an ar15 at a blue light special.

My wife had a dpms 1-9 16" it was a consistant 5" at 300yards with 75grain bullets. That's extremely good for a low end budget gun.
My post was not about accuracy at 300 yards. It was about accuracy at 1000. It was not about accuracy out of a 16 inch barrel. It was about accuracy out of a 18-20 inch barrel. It was not about the purpose of tracers either. I mentioned tracers because they are a big part of the reason the military settled on the 1:7 twist barrel for shots in 556 out past 800 meters. I would agree with you that a 1:9 barrel is just fine for shooting inside of 500meters. In fact I'd prefer 1:9 for 300 yards and closer because it won't overspin the lighter rounds so you can pretty much shoot whatever you want through it.

But the OP asked about maximum range on a .556 with an 18-20 inch barrel. Maximum range is not 300 yards. Maximum range is reaching out to just beyond 1000 meters and a big part of the decision the military made to implement faster twists in their barrels involved the longer heavier rounds used to reach out to that range. It takes a heavy grain bullet and ideally a faster twisted barrel to reach out that far with longer bullets and still have good MOA.

I'm not talking about the M193 tracer rounds either.

I'll back up my statements with direct quotes.

Quote:
The SS-109 bullet uses a "compound" core, with a lead base topped by a steel penetrator, all covered in a gilding-metal (copper alloy) jacket. The L-110 tracer bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket and like all tracer bullets, is hollowed out at the base and filled with tracing compound. Both bullets are much longer in length than the earlier 55gr bullets, especially the L-110 tracer, which was designed to trace out to 800m, verses 450m for the older M196 tracer round. Due to their increased length, these bullets require a faster rifling twist to be properly stabilized. The military settled on a twist rate of 1:7, which is a compromise between the 1:9 twist ideal for SS-109 bullets and the 1:6 twist ideal for L-110 tracers.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/hist_m855.html


For long distance shooting:

Quote:
1:7 and 1:8 are the best.
Why? Accuracy. For heavier and longer rounds during competition shooting, 1:8 and 1:7 twists are the best for heavy 77-80 grain rounds that I use to shoot competitively at 500-1000 meters. Who needs to shoot tracers anyhow? More importantly, heavier rounds are showing very good results in terminal testing and are proving to be much better defensive rounds.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/perf_whattwist.html


These are tracer rounds I was talking about:

Quote:
Cartridge, 5.56-mm, Tracer, M856. (Used in the M16A2/3/4 and M4-series weapons.) The M856 tracer cartridge has characteristics similar to the M196 tracer with a slightly longer tracer burnout distance. This cartridge has a 63.7-grain bullet. The M856 does not have a steel penetrator. It has a red tip (orange when linked 4 to 1 for the M249). This ammunition should not be used in the M16A1 except under emergency conditions, and only at targets less than 90 meters in distance. (The twist of the M16A1 rifling is not sufficient to stabilize the projectile of the heavier ammunition).
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml

Note: M16A1 is a 1:12 barrel. But I have fired these tracers out of a 1:9 barrel and watched them begin to veer significantly after 100 yards. The rounds were designed to be stable out to 800meters in spite of the phosphor compound. Not that you would buy a rifle so you can shoot tracers. Just listing the reason that we have faster twist barrels available for .556 in the first place.

Again, inside of 300 yards I like my 1:9 inch twist barrel way better. But the OP did not ask about the best barrel for inside of 300 yards. The OP specifically asked about maximum range with .556 out of a 18-20" barrel. Maximum range is just outside of 1000 yards. It needs heavier grain bullets to reach that far accurately. Heavier grain bullets are better stabilized by higher twist barrels. This is not to say that it cannot be accomplished under any circumstances with a 1:9 twist. But that is not what is normally used in long distance matches.

This is all I have to say about the barrel twist issue on this thread. I am not going to debate it anymore. These are the facts as given by people who are much smarter than I am and much better marksmen than I am.

Eventually I would like to put a 1:8 fluted steel 18" wilson barrel on my RRA LAR-15 and try my luck out to 1000 yards. When I do I will be sure to compare the difference between that barrel and my current 1:9 moly chrome 16" wilson barrel at those ranges and maybe I'll prove myself and the experts wrong and find out that I've wasted my money. But I hope not.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:52 PM   #19
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A .556 AR-15 is marginal at 1000 yards. I've never seen it done in person but was told that it is possible. You would need to plan on a high twist match barrel and a Wylde chamber. You probably will have to get neck deep into reloading your own rounds as well or pay out the nose for some expensive match rounds. You're looking at more than $700 total though.

There are others with much more experience in this area than I. But if I were in your shoes I would try starting out with a bone stock used rock river arms AR-15 and upgrading the entire upper and barrel to something with a Wylde chamber later when the money looks better.

This would be a comparatively inexpensive option for a semi that would be easy to upgrade to what you want. You could start working on your technique right away and you'd have a very nice entry-level semi to play with.
If one was to buy a DCM, all tricked out out of the box, 1000 yards is stupid w/ a .223/5.56. They are 700 yard HP rifles at best.
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Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
The higher twist rate will stabilize the 75-90 grain competition rounds that actually go out to 1000 yards. 1 in 9 won't do it. 1 in 9 won't even stabilize the long 63 grain M856 (tracer) rounds past 100 yards. (Not that you would want to shoot tracers in a non chrome barrel...)
I'm not buying your internet experience, see above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txhillbilly View Post
A 1-9 twist will stabilize a 75 gr bullet all day long. I shoot the 75 gr BTHP match and 75 gr A-Max bullets out of my 1-9 twist Savage 12 FLVSS all the time.
I don't know where you get your info,but you are wrong.
Agreed! Still not a 1000 yard round!
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #20
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If one was to buy a DCM, all tricked out out of the box, 1000 yards is stupid w/ a .223/5.56. They are 700 yard HP rifles at best.

I'm not buying your internet experience, see above.

Agreed! Still not a 1000 yard round!

http://youtu.be/YqUxvihK8B0
1250 yards with Tika .223

Lots of videos out there of folks shooting with 223 and/or 556 from 800-1000 yards and beyond.

I intend to try it once I upgrade my rifle.

I will post videos here when I do, even if its a year or two from now. Note:I said marginal performance not 1 MOA. Lots of people doing it with marginal results. Some results on vids look pretty good to me. All look fun to try. If its stupid to you fine, but it looks like a fun day at the range to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

It's fine to poke fun of someone's "Internet experience" but the person who told me that 556 was marginal at 1000 yards (but could be done) was a personal friend who is a long range shooter on a Law Enforcement SWAT team. He doesn't have to worry about perfect shots at 1000 yards with 556 because he shoots a Barrett .50 at that range. But he said from his experience 556 was fun to try at 1000 yards and way cheaper to play with. He is the guy I direct most if not all of my firearms questions to. He was one of my firearms instructors in the police academy and is very knowledgable and a very good shooter. Neither of us is a competition shooter so maybe you have a different understanding of "marginal" than we do...

I don't list him as a source on these forums because he does not have any published works so its easy for someone to roll their eyes and say "prove it." I listed the ammo oracle guys at AR15.com as my source because most of what they have published lines up with what I was taught.

Also because they're generally very well known on firearms forums and a lot of people cite their "ammo oracle" with total confidence. But I guess you've got better information than I do. ;-) :shrug: We can all only work with what we've got!
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