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Old 01-16-2011, 02:57 AM   #41
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the 408 Chey-tec.. H-yea, world record holder longest group,..
Source? I'm not doubting you at all, I just wanna know where to read about it. I'm fixated on this stuff recently. Anyway, just pointing out again that the .338 Lapua shot by a Brit soldier named Craig Harrison has the longest range confirmed kill and he did it consequtively. The .408 Chey-tec is 1 bad ass round. Last I looked, these were going for over $120/box for milsurp! :-(
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:12 AM   #42
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cpttango30, Im sorry about the way i write, i have Dislexia .....i have to space out the words or they run together...... ok

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Old 01-16-2011, 04:19 AM   #43
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Source? I'm not doubting you at all, I just wanna know where to read about it.
I am not saying that redmist and I will be sharing a foxhole & MRE's anytime soon, but he does know about this issue:

Cheytac M200 is Top Sniper Gun

Cheytac LLC - The Leader in Extreme Long Range Precision Rifle Systems

Check out Future Weapons on the product. They hold the group size world record at 3 rounds in a group measuring 16.25" at 2,321 yards. MOA would be roughly 23" and change at that distance.

The .338 that was used by the Canadian, Craig Harrison ( MUCH RESPECT ) was actually two shots. A ranging shot with hope, and then a correction and a hit at the distance of 2,707 yards in high desert conditions.

The Chey Tac M200, with the Intervention System Ballistic Computer Software is one of the top three platforms on the planet right now. Bar none. The .50 Barrett can't touch it, which is another reason that the .416 came along.

You have $14K? You can have ALMOST the same system that is being sold to the military for use in the sandbox.
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:36 AM   #44
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M200 chey Tac. It has Beaten out the Barrett M107 and the Accuracy International AS50 whose longest ranges were negligably similar at approximately 1 mile as the longest consitent accuracy rifle to date

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Old 01-16-2011, 04:43 AM   #45
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where did i see it (T.V.) Top Sniper

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Old 01-16-2011, 04:44 AM   #46
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Default Forget the Hollywood hype.

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Wondering if anyone with long range shooting experience, 600-1000 yards will be able to answer a few questions for me. I am interested in buying a rifle, specifically for the bench that will reach out accurately to 600-1000 yards. I am looking first at what caliber should I be looking at? .223, .243, .308 will all of these be suitable or is 1 preferred over another?

Next I am looking at barrel legnth, should I stick with a 26" bull or will a 24" bull work as well?

I will preface this by stating that I have no bench experience for this type of shooting, so my theory is start at 100 yards and become proficient in that range, then move to 200 and so on.

What I am hoping to do is purchase a nice rifle from the start that I can grow into without having to spend big money at a smith to tweak my purchase. I have set my budget roughly in the $1500 range but will extend it to 2k if need be.

Thanks for your time
"Long range setup for beginner"<-- And therein lies the oxymoron... A beginner is not going to pick up longrange shooting unless they are some kind of prodogy. This would be like a child picking up the guitar, skipping the intro lessons and hammering out blues riffs. Sure; it COULD happen, not very likely.
1. Most widely preferred round for this sport is .308 due to economy. There are others that are better but they get VERY expensive. Also, are you a hand loader? That is generally the norm for long range shooters. You need to have the knowledge of skilled hand loading at a minimum before even considering this. Most factory ammo is not conisistent enough to make the cut. You need to either shell out $$$ for specialty factory ammo or you need to make hand loads.

2. 24", 26" etc. barrels? Doesn't really matter. 24" to 26" doesn't generally gain you much. Think MUCH shorter (20"-22") and you'll be in the realm of what most tactical bull barrel set ups are. My personal long range shooter is a simple 20" heavy barrel. The muzzle brake makes it a little longer but doesn't add any noticible velocity. Longer barrels affect velocity to a point; however, after about 16"-18" you are not gaining near as much per inch. Longer barrels are also not going to compensate for inconsistent factory ammunition.

3. Starting at 100yds and moving out to 200yds, etc.: This theory doesn't hold much water. You're talking about ranges where scope reticle "holdover" is not repeatable and; in most cases, not probable due to the fact that the target will be out of your field of view. SOOOO back to classroom time, which is what is going to get you there. You need a thorogh understading of bullet velocities, ballistic coefficients, MOA, bullet-drop, cross windage, scope reticles/subtensions, scope turrets, etc. This stuff isn't just aim, hold over, click, boom, evaluate and repeat but higher/lower/left/right. Bullet drop for example: This depends on at least a half dozen variables; some changing from one minute to the next. The same exact load will drop more or less one moment to another due to humidity alone. There is also temperature, target elevation (air density), aforementioned humidity, target elevation angle, etc. When talking 600-1000 yards, ignoring the variables simply leads to anguish and failure.

As for the actual rifle: If you are serious about this and just starting; do yourself a favor and don't buy cheap military surplus rifle. These things weren't built for snipers or target shooters. They were made to be engage targets at what would be considered "short range" for foot soldiers these days. With a cold barrel, they MIGHT be accurate enough for your wants for one or two shots. Most likey they will not be. There are factory alternatives. I would recommend Savage 10FP, Rem 700 Tactical or equivalent. They are an excellent setup out of the box. I think you can find them for around $800.00 or less. There is the good possibility that you can find a heavy barrel version of these for sale used. I seen 4 of them today at the local gunstore. The funny thing is that I found the obvious reasons these were back on the market as soon as I picked them all. All 4 of them were setup piss poor with cheap-o optics and mounts. 2 of them (a Rem 700 VML and Win 70) had scopes that would be best used on BB guns. LOL I digress. Be sure they didn't wipe the rifling before you drop the money on it. Heavy barrels are NOT cheap so buying a cheap rifle and replacing the barrel is not going to save you any money unless the deal you get is an unusual steal like an hierloom for free! You'll probably need an elevated scope mount to be able to dial it up to these distances. 20 MOA rake is the norm. This will get your MOA up enough to be able to dial in those 800yd + shots. I mention this because it will be a significant part of your budget. Probably around $150.00 for optics mounts. Now... You are left with about $500. The good news is that this is actually do-able. Since you want a purpose built, LONG range rifle, you can shoot with a non-variable power scopes. These actually have less inherit problems (paralax) for long range. This will keep you "on target"(bad pun, I know) for your budget. If you think about it, most beginners buy adjustable power glass, crank it up to high power and leave it anyway. Contrary to popular belief, bigger is not better with scopes. In fact, anything over about 20X is going to hinder you. You will be trying to shoot mirage-like, waving targets through higher powered scopes. This effect is known as the "mirage effect" and it is a real killer. The less the power and lower the outside temp, the less it manifests. You will then have a rifle that can be used for long range shooting. Eventually, you can go on to get better adjustable power optics like Smidt and Bender or US Optics. I would look at Nikon's Monarch line, Sightron's SII line or Leupold VXII line set power scopes. Just some suggestions. I can't stress the forementioned remmedial learnine stuff enough, btw. Don't let it discourage you but it WILL make or break you. Also, check out shooterready.com for a very good shooting simulator. For $40, his shooting sim will save you big bucks on ammo and barrel wear while learning the fundamentals. It includes classroom and practical training on all the previously mentioned variables. Here is some more info on the exact subject. All 3 parts are extremely useful and absolutely true: PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:50 AM   #47
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where did i see it (T.V.) Top Sniper
Sweet! Thanks guys. I'll do a google search on these shows and find them. I did'nt wanna hijack the thread. It looks like it's pretty well answered though.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:03 AM   #48
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The .338 that was used by the Canadian, Craig Harrison ( MUCH RESPECT ) was actually two shots. A ranging shot with hope, and then a correction and a hit at the distance of 2,707 yards in high desert conditions.

You have $14K? You can have ALMOST the same system that is being sold to the military for use in the sandbox :-)
Craig Harrison was a Brit. soldier by all accounts that I have read. He had 3 shots with his AI chambered in .338 Lapua. The first was a ranging shot, the second consecutive 2 were confirmed Taliban kills. Before him it was held be a Canadian. He took the record from the Canuck. Anyway, hair splitting.
$14K? Yeah, I'll take 2!
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:30 AM   #49
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1MOA at 2321 yards is really 24.30087" Just saying.

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Old 01-16-2011, 02:09 PM   #50
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Fixxer actually covered it pretty well but I'll throw my .02 out here.

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The .308 has been proven time and again that it can be shot to 1,000 yards.
....
Just because it CAN get there, doesn't mean it's the best choice for the application. It should not even be in consideration at this point of the discussion.
JD
Look at your first sentance then your last and consider the OP.

For a BEGINNER the .308 should not only be considered, but is actually a good choice. If this becomes a more serious endeavor he will likely move to a more suitable caliber (besides who owns one gun )

I am not saying it is the "magic bullet" but there is TON's of data out available, good quality factory match loads at reasonable prices, is easy on barrels and there are lots of great rifles that will work right off the shelf. There are certainly better choices but not many that are as practical for a beginner.
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