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Long range with a .223, how possible?


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Old 11-25-2010, 07:47 AM   #21
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Thanks for that info. I'll check my barrel. I suspect I am only able to shoot .223 and if that is true it is no great loss. I appreciate your response.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:57 PM   #22
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I called the company that made my .223 which in my case is Savage. I have a 12 LRPV and they told me I could shoot either 5.56 or .223. I'm taking their word for it and so far I haven't had any problems.

BTW if anyone happens to know they gave me bad info at Savage I'd really like to know that.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:51 AM   #23
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I have used my AR match rifle (White oak with a wylde chamber 1/8 twist with 80 grain projectiles) out to 1000 yards in competition.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:09 AM   #24
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DrZ,

The Wilde chamber is an excellent chamber! When I was National Director of Law Enforcement and Government Sales and Training for a well known AR Manufacturer we used the Wylde chamber exclusively in our National Match Rifle Barrels for competition and also for the National Match Rifles for Camp Perry OH. each year. Absolutely a great chamber and no issue with shooting either 223 Remington Cal or 5.56 NATO Ammunition in it. Since Bill Wylde refined the chamber for the matches throughout the country as well as Camp Perry where most ammunition used is 5.56 NATO Match ammunition.

And finally to address the slanderous comments! Wannabe! It is pretty hard to be a wannabe when you in fact were for16+ years on a Metro Police Department. And actually witnessed the positive use of Observer Snipers as well as the Stockholm Syndrome and hostage situations for many years. On one occasion we had 35 hostages in a bank. On another a crazy had an assistant Fire Chief in the bays of HQ Station one brandishing two handguns. I have personally witnessed the Stockholm Syndrome we have unfortunately naturalized an individual. And I took my assignment seriously being LE and also as a small arms weapons trainer and Combat Engineer and Army Rifle Team member in the Army. So say what you please but fortunately or not some here on the FTF are the real deal and not wannabe BS'rs as some might think. When you have walked the walk then you can talk! If anyone would like to see my SWAT Retirement Knife that states the service I will be glad to provide a picture of it. I was presented it in 2003 when I retired. It is a tradition on the Team at the Metro that if anyone serves 10 years on the Team they get a Case XXX Bowie Knife upon retirement! She is a beauty! In fact I also received my Remington 40X as well as a memento.
It was used in the World Police and Fire Games by the Team who won first place SWAT and the Gold Medal that year competing against Dallas TX PD, Belfast Ireland, Champaign Urbana IL and many other teams from the USA and a few from Europe.

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Old 09-10-2015, 01:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper03 View Post
As stated you do not want to shoot 5.56 NATO Cal. in a Remington 223 Chamber. There are dimensional differences that increase the pressure as well as military ammunition has higher chamber pressures. In the bolt gun chambered for the true Remington 223 Cal. you will likely feel resistance in the final process of closing the bolt! "Don't use 5.56 in these chambers. By forcing the bolt closed in the last instance you have increased your chamber pressure by about 20,000 psi!!!! Most all of the modern production AR Rifles are truly chambered for 5.56 NATO as well as some of the newer bolt rifles. You can find out by using a Throat Erosion gauge!
Reference the question about 600 yard for the 5.56 the competitive shooters at Camp Perry at the Nationals shoot the 5.56 at 600 yards in their competition. So not at all out of the question. The biggest factor of the 223/5.56 at longer distances is the wind effect upon bullet flight.
Isn't it kind of stupid that this situation has been allowed to develop? One of the "advantages" of the .223 Winchester, repeated over and over, is that cheap military ammunition can be fired in a .223.

Apparently some moron in the shooting industry or the military is behind this. Is there any historical data as to exactly which moron created this problem - and the alleged reasoning behind it?

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Old 09-10-2015, 03:17 PM   #26
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And finally to address the not so polite comments! Being that of Wannabe!
Not that I need to cater to anyone's unreasonable comments! But to clarify the issue which you can make your own decision regarding the comment! . If the below makes me a Wannabe then so be it! Who gives a Flying ____! I surely do not!
I have had respect for the individual even after the unreasonable comments due to the fact I consider them very knowledgeable in many areas. But definitely wrong and unreasonable in this area with the comments. The motive for the unreasonable comments is unknown! To disagree on an issue here on the FTF is one thing. But to slam members is another and especially when the slams are not valid.

So here is some facts to be revealed:

It is pretty hard to be a wannabe when you in fact were an LE Observer/Sniper for16+ years on a City Metro Police Department SWAT Team. And actually witnessed the positive use of Observer/Snipers as well as the Stockholm Syndrome, hostage situations and call outs for many years. I have spent a lot of my life also learning and being proficient with the rifle. And I was fortunate that the Army and the Metro PD invested a lot in me being able to train and do that! And I thank them! From the Ranges at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO., Ft. Benning GA., Marine Corp. Ranges at Quantico, VA. competing and attempting to be as proficient as I could be. Teaching State Academy Sniper Schools as one of the Staff Instructors for well over 10 years, and being involved with some of the East Coast Navy Seal Sniper Team classes and attending a few of their Sniper Team Graduations and Graduation Parties and presentations. (Guys from Teams 2-4-6-8) Super Guys they are! "Oh did I say "6" who does no longer exist!. Now known as the DEV Group! Even as late as two years ago attending a Long Range LE Rifle School in Texas where we shot up to 1400 yards in the school. "Not practical but a H of a lot of fun!" And attending my M-14/M-1A LE Instructor Re-Certification in Indiana in 2013. But some personal experiences for the "Real Deal"
To share some LE Sniper ops issues! On one occasion we had 35 hostages in a bank. In the end the Perp knew we were coming for him and finally done us and the City a favor by done himself! "Unfortunately" he had already shot and killed one person in the bank. On another, a crazy had a bad day and had the Assistant Fire Chief in the fire bays of the HQ Fire Station in the middle of the night brandishing, pointing at the hostage and waving two handguns around. It was cold that knight I remember it well. I still can visualize most all major incidents over the years while on the rifle. The Fire HQ Perp finally gave up when I was in the position to observe and ready for a shot. Even had the Green Light at the time from Command. I ordered the Entry Team to "GO" "GO" "GO"as 4 of the Team had snuck into the Bay came out from underneath a Fire Truck and smashed the Perp against the wall as he took the guns off the AFC and looked in another direction! I have personally witnessed the "Stockholm Syndrome" while on target, with a perp surrendering weapons to the hostage as convinced by the SWAT Negotiators, only later to observe the hostage giving them back to hostage taker before my very eyes! Believe it or not? I remember not believing it and maybe not being professional! I got on the Command Channel and stated! "Holly S--- you are not going to believe what I just observed! And advised them the Hostage just handed the guns back to the Hostage Taker. In the debrief with the hostage advised he advised (since I personally attended it) "I could tell he was not going to hurt me well I got to know him and he would not have hurt anyone!". And I did not want to upset or fluster him anymore! So I felt comfortable with him taking them back! I knew he was gong to surrender soon! I have had hypothermia while out on operations and we unfortunately have had to naturalize an individual. Bottom line, I took my assignment seriously being LE Sniper and also as a Army small arms weapons trainer, Combat Engineer and Army Rifle Team member. God has blessed and protected me regarding the experiences I have had. But all was the real deal! So say what you please, but some here on the FTF are the "Real Deal" and not wannabe BS'rs as some might think. When you have walked the walk and talked the talk.
On to a better note, if anyone would like to see my SWAT Retirement Knife I would be glad to provide a picture of it. However one side of it is engraved with a little too much information to reveal on the Internet. I could block some of it out I guess if anyone wants to see it or photo the opposite side. I was presented it at my retirement bash. It is a tradition on the Team at the Metro that if anyone serves 10 years on the SWAT Team they get a Case XXX Bowie Knife and a wood wall Display Rack upon retirement! She is a beauty! I can put the picture in the appropriate Thread if someone want to see it! In fact I also received my Remington 40X Observer/Sniper Rifle that I used in the last few years as well, as a memento. If you would like to see it I can post it in the appropriate Thread. She still can put them down range today! So say what you please but fortunately or not some here on the FTF are the "Real Deal" and not wannabe BS'rs as some might think.
The Team consisted of two Teams 20 Officers in total who were very disciplined and skilled at what they did.
The old 40X was used for the final scoring shot in the World Police and Fire Games for the Team to win first place SWAT Team and the Gold Medal that year competing against Dallas TX PD, Belfast Ireland, Champaign Urbana IL and many other teams from the USA and a few from Europe. 40X Remington Sniper Rifle custom built by Paul in the Remington Custom Shop! *Took 6 months to get her!

So some are the real deal and I am sure some may "dream" or wannabe a little! That is OK with me as well! I enjoy the Forum and all the good folks here just the same!

03
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:21 PM   #27
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Correction Salvo
It is a 223 Remington Cal.

Chamber X-rays

!
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:29 PM   #28
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That's right. It was developed from the 222 magnum, which in turn was developed from the 222, a Remington original.

This still doesn't shed any light on what particular moron is behind this issue, and whether they are a corporate or a military pin-head.

I suspect the military. - They adopted a pipsqueak 250 yard varmint round for war, belatedly noticed that it was pipsqueak, but by then they had bought so many rifles that to go back to an effective round would have involved admitting that they were stupid in the first place - so they compounded their original stupidity (with interest) by trying to say, "There - I fixed it!" with a slightly longer, heavier bullet that of course needed new throat dimensions etc..

What a pack of dip-tards! - The Brits practically begged them to go with a more substatial round for NATO, but Oh no!

Kind of reminds one of the ignorant decision to overlook the lesson of the Boxer rebellion, and go to the 9mm for a service pistol round - with almost identical ballistics to the 38 that was found inadequate for military use so long ago. - Now they're crawfishing on that stupidity as well.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper03 View Post

So here is some facts to be revealed:

It is pretty hard to be a wannabe when you in fact were an LE Observer/Sniper for16+ years on a City Metro Police Department SWAT Team.
well heck, stick with it a bit and I'm sure you will learn something!

(in all seriousness, that's some very cool training and experience, Sniper!)
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:02 PM   #30
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Salvo,

You are exactly correct! There would have been some rounds that would have been more superior than their choice. I know recently the military had looked at eh 6.8 SPC and even slightly at the 6.5 Grendel that was first introduced by Bill Alexander and associates. Unfortunately I think budgetary purposes as well as inventories of the present 5.56 NATO rifles quashed the project. In think of it there was nothing wrong with my beloved M-14 in 7.62X51 (Commercial 308 Cal). I know the rounds were heavier as far as packing in combat but the results as far as effectiveness of the round far outweighed the negative in my opinion. That is why the AKs in 7.62 X39 have been so effective and a choice of many armies in the field. And yes for those who have been in and around the military when weapon considerations are viewed know without a doubt once again politics over rules common sense and logical choices!

Sergeant York! Yes Sir! I will try to stick around! And in reality I try to learn something new everyday even after all these years . Because I certainly do not know it all and there are plenty of others out there that are a walking book of knowledge! And I am glad to say that I believe several are on the Forum with us! And just maybe as I am sure, all of us stick around will be more enlightened in the future!


Thanks!
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*Patrick Henry

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed. Unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.”
James Madison. Author of the 2nd Amendment

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