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Old 11-29-2011, 05:44 PM   #31
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Default mcgowen break in

I tried to post this earlier but think I did it in the wrong way (quick Reply), sorry I am new to forums in general so i will try again.

I have a question for some more experienced persons than I. I have shot savage rifles for the past 20 years and have always been satisfied; I recently purchased a Mcgowen barrel for a savage action and decided to break it in by firing once and cleaning for the first few rounds and then see how many I need to do from there. I use sweets for copper removal and in my savage barrels can see the blue streaks on my patches. There was no blue on my patches after a few times firing once and cleaning on the Mcgowen barrel so I tried a few at a time still no copper, the last time out I shot 11 times and still no copper, Inwould guess after hundreds of rounds my savages would show copper after just a few rounds. I know good barrels do not foul as much but that seems like a lot. I start with hoppes 9 then sweets? I am shooting Berger bullets at the starting load with IMR 4831. Any feedback is appreciated. With just this load I kept the group of 11 shots in 2 inches at 100 yards so I am happy with the possibilities of the barrel especially if I can shoot it alot without copper build up.

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Old 11-30-2011, 01:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studofsuds View Post
I tried to post this earlier but think I did it in the wrong way (quick Reply), sorry I am new to forums in general so i will try again.

I have a question for some more experienced persons than I. I have shot savage rifles for the past 20 years and have always been satisfied; I recently purchased a Mcgowen barrel for a savage action and decided to break it in by firing once and cleaning for the first few rounds and then see how many I need to do from there. I use sweets for copper removal and in my savage barrels can see the blue streaks on my patches. There was no blue on my patches after a few times firing once and cleaning on the Mcgowen barrel so I tried a few at a time still no copper, the last time out I shot 11 times and still no copper, Inwould guess after hundreds of rounds my savages would show copper after just a few rounds. I know good barrels do not foul as much but that seems like a lot. I start with hoppes 9 then sweets? I am shooting Berger bullets at the starting load with IMR 4831. Any feedback is appreciated. With just this load I kept the group of 11 shots in 2 inches at 100 yards so I am happy with the possibilities of the barrel especially if I can shoot it alot without copper build up.
McGowen barrels are hand lapped barrels,and they shouldn't copper foul much.They are a premium barrel maker,and your rifle should shoot way better than 2" groups at 100yards.
Berger bullets really like to be seated very long,and closer to maximum powder loads for the best results.
My 25/06,both 308's,and 300WM shoot Berger VLD's around 1/4"-1/2" at 100 yards.
Seat your bullets .010-.020 off the lands,and try more powder,that should wake them up,and tighten up your groups.
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:24 AM   #33
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I would still like to think that the comment of cleaning the rifle from the MUZZLE! was an error! At least I would hope so. Damaging the Lands & Groves otherwise Rifling's at the very end of the barrel is taboo and the first sinful act! Always clean from the chamber to the muzzle! If anyone agrees! As far as all the other procedures it is not at all necessary with the Rock River Rifles. I always clean my new ones with solvent first and then shoot them. I just do not allow the barrel to get very hot at all when initially shooting them. 1/4 MOA Groups with the Varmint Rifles and 1/2 MOA with the 16" tactical rifles verify the procedure and prove the point to me.
Most good AR Rifles barrels have been lapped previously.
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Old 11-30-2011, 06:00 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by trex1310 View Post
You mean you don't shoot 12 boxes of shells two at a time and use
4 gallons of Hoppe's to break in your barrel? Tsk tsk tsk.
I broke-in my barrel in 20 shots... I also zeroed the scope, and load developed, with said shots.

That you guys need to invent an argument to rebut is telling.
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Last edited by The_Kid; 11-30-2011 at 08:23 AM. Reason: added, "with said shots."
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:00 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
FIRST LET ME SAY THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ANY BREAK-IN PROCEDURE THEY PREFER
You invent yet another argument to rebut. It really isn't that hard to follow my argument, since you are having problems, maybe it would be best to have someone help you.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Nothing done during the CLEANING process will change the roughness.
Again, find someone to help you read the information provided, then argue the points presented.


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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Lapping the barrel (which is NOT recommended after installation by some barrel makers)
Yes, the barrel makers that have already lapped them, that bit of information was in the Shilen link I had provided.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Lapping the barrel...can remove imperfections but at the cost of barrel life.
Prove it.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
OK let’s go with the “fact” that firing the rifle will smooth the throat (the important part of the supposed break-in) and perhaps the bore, I can agree that there may be some material removed from the rifle. We good there?
Wow! You actually got something right... whereas, renders your preceding paragraph void... [edit] and much of below.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
You have not answered my question of why it is so urgent, you only talk about “those who only argue that angle” but still can’t answer the question why except to point to Shilen.
So everything you wrote above has been lost down the memory hole? I answered the question, and you understood it until now. Your statements displaying your understanding, (albeit, a skewed interpretation,) of my position.
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Using a copper jacketed bullet removes only very minor imperfections in the surface.
and
Quote:
allow better contact for a soft metal to attempt to wear down a harder metal
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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
You conveniently skipped a very significant line in the first paragraph on the Shilen site …
“Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don’t think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal”.
If they are your answer to everything, what do you have to say to that?
I say you need context. I supplied the context to what my point at that time was, and made said point to your satisfaction, (depending on the moment.)
Watch and learn, this is how one argues honorably by using context...
Quote:
...By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal. All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning...

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
[quoting Krieger] “So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore.”
Which part of the first line did you not get? Krieger Barrel: BREAK-IN & CLEANING:
Quote:
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --,
We've gone over this twice now. Lapped barrels are already broken-in, evidently the throat needs attention in the Krieger barrel.

Is it your intention to take these passages out of context, as a concerted effort to get me to call your honor into question; therefore causing me to violate the TOS for being "abusive?"
Because it isn't helping your argument whatsoever..


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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Again I ask why is it important and the best they have is
No, you didn't "ask" them for that answer, therefore that is not an answer to the question.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
I have seen suggestions that the powder residue is beneficial and will burnish the throat but I am puzzled how one should remove copper but leave the power residue.
As you so eloquently Caps Locked above, "EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ANY BREAK-IN PROCEDURE THEY PREFER"
So those people that use that method can answer your question.

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
As per the Kreiger site, nothing is changed in the barrel bore during break-in and that is where the copper is deposited.
Wrong again!
Quote:
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.
I can't believe you missed it, it was the part directly above your second out of context "quote."

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Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
I have discussed this with shooters, metalurgists and gunsmiths and the only agreement is that in general this ritual is done more frequently on expensive custom barrels that would have never seen an issue in the first place.
I said that same thing, (in so many words,) in my first comment.
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Originally Posted by The_Kid View Post
If you don't see a reduction in the amount of copper on the patches as you go, you are either doing it wrong, or your barrel had already been lapped.
That said, it doesn't negate the measurable effects of barrel break-in.

Also see, Fallacy: Appeal to Authority and/or Fallacy: Appeal to Belief

I and now you have provided expert testimony as to the real effect of barrel break-in; but your "theological" ideology is too strong to listen to, (or quote,) facts and/or reasoning... and by-golly it is your "RIGHT" to!
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Last edited by The_Kid; 11-30-2011 at 08:19 AM. Reason: formatting, typos, general editing
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:20 AM   #36
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Sniper03, my comment to clean from the muzzle was not an error. I agree 100% that damaging the lands and groves is bad. My reasoning for that statement is you have total control over the cleaning rod and brush/tip when starting at the muzzle and you can make sure that you don't damage anything. When starting at the chamber, you push the rod through but then you have to pull it back. You don't have any control over how it enters the barrel when pulling it back through because you're on the other end of the gun. You also have a better chance of damaging a land if you're pulling it back through with an adapter attached to the cleaning rod for larger calibers. The corner of those adapters have a tendency to want to catch on the lands when pulling it back though.

That's why I think it is best to clean from the muzzle, but all that's just my opinion.

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Old 12-01-2011, 12:24 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by TLuker
Sniper03, my comment to clean from the muzzle was not an error. I agree 100% that damaging the lands and groves is bad. My reasoning for that statement is you have total control over the cleaning rod and brush/tip when starting at the muzzle and you can make sure that you don't damage anything. When starting at the chamber, you push the rod through but then you have to pull it back. You don't have any control over how it enters the barrel when pulling it back through because you're on the other end of the gun. You also have a better chance of damaging a land if you're pulling it back through with an adapter attached to the cleaning rod for larger calibers. The corner of those adapters have a tendency to want to catch on the lands when pulling it back though.

That's why I think it is best to clean from the muzzle, but all that's just my opinion.
Never heard of removing the adapter and cleaning piece before removing the rod huh?
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:15 AM   #38
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You may call my honor into question if you need to. You may also call my mother bad names if it makes you feel better.

Despite your claim, you have never written a concise sentence that answered my initial question. Yes, I think I do know what you mean but I would really like to see it spelled out word for word. I got a bit obtuse and pedantic because you spent more effort quoting me line by line than putting together an explanation.

So a couple of my opinions.
Hand lapping is a good way to provide a smooth bore and throat surface, providing it is done properly, especially on a custom barrel that was intended to be lapped.
Hand Lapping and barrel “break-in” are attempting to achieve the same goal but due to differences in the process they will never reach the same level of quality.
Firing a bullet through the barrel will remove metal. I don’t believe I have ever indicated otherwise.

So to the issue I have with the cleaning between shots. I asked for your explanation because too many people know what they should do but not why. Cleaning removes copper build up but why does that matter between shots, I say it doesn’t. Let’s consider your 20 round break-in while looking at the Krieger site

This is the complete paragraph so there is nothing taken out of context.

Quote:
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.
They want to polish the throat (sounds good) without allowing copper build up in the bore (ok but why?) I only find one reason that they believe the copper buildup should be removed between rounds and that is because “may be difficult to remove later “ (shown in red). That comes back to the comment I made in my first post to you. They also indicate that the source of the copper is a rough throat not the bore “This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.” (blue text). Then there is the ”very little is done to the bore during break-in” (green text) Let’s try to stay with “most part” and say 90% and “very little” being 10%.
In my opinion (I’m not alone but you can put it all on me) if you shoot 20 rounds following the fire and clean process, the bore it will be no “smoother” than firing 20 rounds and cleaning after that. The amount of “polish work” being done by the bullet will not be reduced significantly by the minimal copper in the bore since the main problem is not in the bore in the first place. The OCD clean and shoot method isn't hurting anything but certainly shouldn't be considered a requirement.


Ok, why don’t we look at Shilen since you used them as an “answer” in this post
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Originally Posted by The_Kid View Post
Better tell Shilen that they have it all wrong.
I responded by quoting this line from their site
Quote:
Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal.
They don’t think it is required so they came up with a placebo.

Quote:
All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kid View Post
We've gone over this twice now. Lapped barrels are already broken-in, evidently the throat needs attention in the Krieger barrel.
You have said lapped barrels need no break-in and I agree. Why did you choose to quote and bold this statement in your post
“This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.”
If in fact a new barrel doesn’t need break-in ... it wouldn’t get a break-in procedure. I point out the these discrepancies because I think it calls into question the validity of using them as a source.


Oh yeah, this did get a chuckle of of me

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Prove it.
Mr Kettle meet Mr Black.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:17 AM   #39
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Never heard of removing the adapter and cleaning piece before removing the rod huh?
I want the brush or tip and patch cleaning in both directions. I also want the brush or tip finishing in the direction of the bullet travel. So I'll stick with cleaning from the muzzle and I would recommend it to anyone else, but everyone is free to clean a gun how they wish.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:22 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by TLuker

I want the brush or tip and patch cleaning in both directions. I also want the brush or tip finishing in the direction of the bullet travel. So I'll stick with cleaning from the muzzle and I would recommend it to anyone else, but everyone is free to clean a gun how they wish.
Thats your perrogative but i think ill stick with the way a gun smith for 35 years taught me.
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