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Old 11-29-2011, 03:31 AM   #21
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The main problem with a gun that copper fouls fast is it isn't going to be very accurate.If the bore is rough,it's going to copper foul pretty fast,I know this from vast experience.My 25/06 was a copper mine until I used the Tubb's Final Finish bullets thru the bore.I spent a long time working on this rifle getting the bore cleaned up,and fire lapping was a last resort.But it worked on this barrel.

Most barrels don't have to be broke in,but some do.

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Old 11-29-2011, 09:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Explain how cleaning between rounds will reduce longterm fouling.
It appears you are saying that the copper left during the first few rounds can never be removed unless it is removed immediately after the round is shot.
To those that can only argue that angle, it "appears" that way. What you suggest I imply, is of course ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
NOTHING during the cleaning process will change the roughness in the bore, PERIOD.
The forces of the bullet being smashed down a perfectly clean bore are tremendous, EXCLAMATION POINT! (Top that!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
Only lapping or shooting will smooth the bore, removing the fouling immediately is a placebo.
Better tell Shilen that they have it all wrong.
Quote:
Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCH2FLY View Post
but that doesn't mean you can't completely remove the build up after 40-50 rounds.
Again with the rebuttal to the ridiculous argument you've invented.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:16 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTurf View Post
As far as the barrel break-in thing goes, I think this debate will go on forever.
Much of that comes from proponents that propagate misinformation; there is one in this thread. So naturally, those of us that understand the process need to address previous claims.
For example;
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
Again it’s impossible to know if it actually makes a difference on a new gun, but I used the above advice on a very old gun: 1944 No4 Mk 1* Lee Enfield Long Brach .303 British. That gun shot 3 ½ ” groups at 100yds before using JB and it shot 0.75” groups at 100yds with factory ammo after. That was an extreme case on an old gun that obviously had a ton of copper fouling, but it made me a believer.
Notice how they attribute "accuracy" with barrel break-in but give a proof that the real culprit was "a ton of copper fouling"? I've never made that claim, yet I on many occasions I have had to defend it.

He goes on saying,
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
The JB cleaning removes almost all copper fouling and allows for direct contact between the next bullet and the barrel (especially the start of the lands) rather than the bullet contacting the copper fouling that is there from the previous shots. I have to believe that is a good thing.
When in reality JB (Bore Compound) Bore Cleaner doesn't make that claim.
Quote:
Paste cleaner gets bores sparkling clean without caustic liquids. Removes lead residue in just three passes from steel barrels. Do not use in brass barrels. Cushioned abrasive action actually polishes your bore clean without damage.
I would also note that TLuker admits it doesn't work. "removes almost all copper fouling". There are all sorts of products that remove copper completely; using abrasives not made to remove copper fouling, to remove copper fouling, would never enter into my plan.

My system of using penetrating oil for carbon fouling and ammonia based solvents for copper fouling, has promoted the bullet's potential to remove the "burrs and tool marks."


(That is after about 1000 shots... need an updated pic.)

Which results in almost no copper fouling... and it shoots wonderfully!

So I am satisfied with the reduction in copper fouling; which allows for more shots before precision drops-off, due to said copper fouling. I can see how others might find that appealing. It's not magic, it is science.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
i just do a thorough cleaning to get the shipping gunk out and go shoot. i dont follow any magic rituals
You mean you don't shoot 12 boxes of shells two at a time and use
4 gallons of Hoppe's to break in your barrel? Tsk tsk tsk.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:54 PM   #25
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I clean my firearms every time I shoot them, whether it is ten times or one-hundred times. I only use copper jacketed bullets. I use a good copper solvent and rinse ther barrel with Powder Blast after I run the patches and brushes down the bore. Once in a while I use some foaming bore cleaner called Wipe Out to safely remove all copper fouling and it does a fantastic job. If your barrel has copper fouling you will be able to see it by shining a light down the muzzle end. It will look like orange streaks. You can see it better if you look down the barrel with a light in a dark room. It might even look like rust. I heard penetrating oils mentioned for removing fouling. I use Kroil sometimes. It works great for removing moly fouling from the barrel and gets out other stuff also. I have noticed that as I shoot my guns more and more I am getting less copper fouling.

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Old 11-29-2011, 02:32 PM   #26
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I have a questions for some more experienced persons than I. I have shot savage rifles for the past 20 years and have always been satisfied; I recently purchased a Mcgowen barrel and decided to break it in by firing once and cleaning for a few rounds and then see how many I need to do from there. I use sweets and in my savage barrels can see the blue streaks on my patches. There was no blue on my patches after a firing on the Mcgowen barrel so I tried a few at a time still no copper, the last time out I shot 11 times and still no copper, Inwould guess after hundreds of rounds my savages would show copper after just a few rounds. I know good barrels do not foul as much but that seems like a lot. I start with hoppes 9 then sweets? I am shooting Berger bullets at the starting load with IMR 4831. Any feedback is appreciated. With just this load I am kept the group of 11 shots in 2 inches at 100 yards so I am happy with the possibilities of the barrel especially if I can shoot it alot without copper build up.

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Old 11-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kid
To those that can only argue that angle, it "appears" that way. What you suggest I imply, is of course ridiculous.

The forces of the bullet being smashed down a perfectly clean bore are tremendous, EXCLAMATION POINT! (Top that!)

Better tell Shilen that they have it all wrong.

Again with the rebuttal to the ridiculous argument you've invented.
FIRST LET ME SAY THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ANY BREAK-IN PROCEDURE THEY PREFER OR NONE AT ALL. This has almost theological properties, those who “believe” and those who don’t. may be difficult



Nothing done during the CLEANING process will change the roughness. Lapping the barrel (which is NOT recommended after installation by some barrel makers) can remove imperfections but at the cost of barrel life. Using a copper jacketed bullet removes only very minor imperfections in the surface. The main reason copper is left in the barrel is because it is softer than the steel of the barrel and removed by contact. If it is softer how do you expect it to remove much steel? If it is strong enough to remove metal in the first 25-50 rounds the barrel life would be crap. If it is only removes the "burrs" then the cleaning is overkill.



OK let’s go with the “fact” that firing the rifle will smooth the throat (the important part of the supposed break-in) and perhaps the bore, I can agree that there may be some material removed from the rifle. We good there?

Now let’s get to the cleaning part. Why is it important to clean after each shot? Since you brought up Shilen, their site doesn’t say a word about that, but I will get to them later. So it seems very urgent that the copper be removed from the barrel immediately and this is what I question. You have not answered my question of why it is so urgent, you only talk about “those who only argue that angle” but still can’t answer the question why except to point to Shilen. You claim it is science but other than claims of success there is no objective proof. When someone says "I have always done it" how the results be verifiable? Ok on to Shilen .



You conveniently skipped a very significant line in the first paragraph on the Shilen site …
“Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don’t think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal”.
If they are your answer to everything, what do you have to say to that?

Check out the Kreiger Barrel site, they have a long wonderful article about the whys of break-in.

The main point, and I quote the site…

“So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore.”

Again I ask why is it important and the best they have is

“If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later.”

OK, “may be difficult” so other than it being hard to remove later there is NOTHING being done by the removal of the copper deposits (period, exclamation point) except allow better contact for a soft metal to attempt to wear down a harder metal. I have seen suggestions that the powder residue is beneficial and will burnish the throat but I am puzzled how one should remove copper but leave the power residue.

As per the Kreiger site, nothing is changed in the barrel bore during break-in and that is where the copper is deposited.

I have discussed this with shooters, metalurgists and gunsmiths and the only agreement is that in general this ritual is done more frequently on expensive custom barrels that would have never seen an issue in the first place.




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Old 11-29-2011, 04:07 PM   #28
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Well said TCH2FLY. Your comments made sense to me. The only reason that I am so picky about removing copper is that I don't like it in the barrel, plain and simple. I have looked inside the bores of some of my friends' barrels and did not like what I saw.

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Old 11-29-2011, 04:25 PM   #29
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TCH2FLY,You can argue this subject to death and still have questions.
If you break in your barrels fine-if you don't fine.It all comes down to what someone wants to achieve.
When I buy a new/used rifle,I check out the bore with a bore light.If it looks good and smooth,I just shoot it-if it looks a little rough,I do a break in procedure on the barrel.
There is no perfect answer to this question,If you ask every barrel maker-They'll give you a different answer.

As to your question about cleaning after each shot,my answer is-A barrel is kind of like a cast iron skillet.It needs to be seasoned before using it.
I personally think doing a break in helps accuracy,but there are others that disagree.That's just the way it is!

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Old 11-29-2011, 05:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrm14 View Post
Well for some, like this....

Proper Barrel Break-in Procedure - YouTube

But for others, something like this...

Break-In & Cleaning
I've seen lots of joke/mock video's, some of them are really funny ... I don't think this one is a joke though, something makes me think this guy really thinks this way ... even if most rifles come with a cow barrel.
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