High Speed vs lower speed cartridges.


Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > General Rifle Discussion > High Speed vs lower speed cartridges.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-10-2012, 12:08 PM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 460
Liked 114 Times on 88 Posts
Likes Given: 111

Default High Speed vs lower speed cartridges.

I have recently come upon some comments about the much greater destructiveness of higher speed rounds versus the lower speed sounds - against hard inanimate objects. Against flesh - well known. But against objects.
Does anyone have any good experience with this - any guidelines as to what you should or shouldn't be shooting at - depending on how you do or don't want to tear up a certain target.
The comments were concerning favorite set up steel plate targets that were normally used for all kinds of different cartridges - mostly pistols (but some pretty big pistols in the mix) and some rifles. The high speed high power rounds were not used against some favorite steel targets - for fear of severely damaging them - and wanting them functionable later for other demonstrations.
Any thoughts on this.
I'm just not that knowledgeable... But I'd like to understand.



__________________
Colby is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 12-10-2012, 02:57 PM   #2
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
locutus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,317
Liked 5713 Times on 3229 Posts
Likes Given: 5140

Default

High velocity increases kinetic energy by the square of the velocity.

For that reason, the M-1 Abrams tank uses a smooth bore main gun with a velocity of ~ 5000 FPS. The non exploding depleted uranium sabot round is the most destructive ever used by a tank.

High explosive rounds are available for that gun, but the sabot round is the round of choice against armor.



__________________
“We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.”


Winston Churchill
locutus is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:13 PM   #3
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SSGN_Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,348
Liked 2190 Times on 1291 Posts
Likes Given: 475

Default

Alot can depend on bullet construction as well. Thin jackets and light weight bullets may not do as much damage against harder objects.

If you are talking about shooting steel plates specifically and not wanting them torn up, then it would depend on the metal used and any hardening treatment to the metal. Most target manufacturers will rate their targets for certain types of rounds. AR 500 Brinell steel is rated against heavy rifle rounds for thousands of hits. Most handgun rated targets have half the hardness rating and can be damaged by rifle rounds.

MGM Targets has a lot of good info on their site about steel targets, as well as a good selection of targets.

__________________
SSGN_Doc is offline  
locutus Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:31 PM   #4
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MoreAltitude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 448
Liked 156 Times on 93 Posts

Default

I've posted this video before, but it is simply amazing. 1 million frames per second of rounds onto steel plate, plus other stuff. Hardened steel plate and softer steel targets. Doesn't really answer your question, but interesting to watch given the OP's choice of subject...


YouTube: 1 million fps Slow Motion video of bullet impacts made by Werner Mehl

http://youtu.be/QfDoQwIAaXg

__________________

The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved


Last edited by MoreAltitude; 12-10-2012 at 03:49 PM.
MoreAltitude is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:46 PM   #5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
oldpapps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Middle America,Missouri
Posts: 173
Liked 15 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

41 years ago last summer a co-worker and I got the bright idea of making up some reusable targets out of 3/8 inch boiler plate.
We shot these targets with a wide selection of weapons and loads.

Soft lead splatters. Hard jacketed bullets bounce back. Very hard FMJ (military stuff) cuts a chunk of the metal out and throws is back at ya. It's very hot!
Didn't matter if it was pistol stuff or surplus rifle stuff. Just bigger chunks.

Going to shoot metal? Make sure the target metal is thick and at a longer distance.

Now, I have my target stand set in front of a rock out cropping at a hundred yards. I still get some pistol round coming back from my 25 yard tree stumps.

The upper photo is .45 ACP 230 FMJ/what was shot, into a steel tank and into a tree stump. The lower is (.40 S&W) into and back from a (new) cedar tree stump. Don't ask me to explain the 40 cal. That is lead and it came back 25 yards!

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73975&stc=1&d=13551572 50

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73976&stc=1&d=13551574 06

100_3030s.jpg   100_3027s.jpg  
__________________

Enjoy,

OSOK

oldpapps is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 08:13 PM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SSGN_Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,348
Liked 2190 Times on 1291 Posts
Likes Given: 475

Default

If using fixed steel plates it is also advised that the plates be angled leaning forward at an angle so that any spall is bounced toward the ground, and not directly back at the shooter. This also means that the area that the target is standing in should be free of rocks so that no other fragments are ricochetted back toward the shooter.

__________________
SSGN_Doc is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 01:40 AM   #7
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
John_Deer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,113
Liked 1588 Times on 1085 Posts
Likes Given: 550

Default

Fixed plates are a bad idea for any round. I don't know the science behind it. But I have seen to many bad outcomes from people shooting fixed, immovable steel objects. If you are going to acquire silhouettes or any other steel target make sure they swing, fall or have some type of motion when a bullet strikes them. Swinging targets have given me the best results.

__________________
John_Deer is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 01:56 AM   #8
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,617
Liked 813 Times on 621 Posts
Likes Given: 125

Default

Colby, energy translates into velocity, not the other way around as has been indicated above. If you put more energy into one of two otherwise identical bullets, i.e. burning more and/or faster powder behind it, it goes faster and has more energy!

Powerful hard bullets hurt "soft" targets. Greater than 40 degrees from the perpendicular will redirect the bullet with almost all of its energy. A hard bullet can cause concavities, also known as "flats" in a plate and it is there, where a bullet hits a spot less than 40 degrees that a backwards rebounding ricochet is coming after you. Ever shoot Practical Pistol? Did they ban you from using jacketed ammo!? See...

Look at accuracy too. .22 caliber and smaller, as a rule of thumb, tend to be more accurate the faster they go. It is the opposite for larger.

__________________

Last edited by HockaLouis; 12-11-2012 at 02:00 AM.
HockaLouis is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 02:50 AM   #9
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
locutus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,317
Liked 5713 Times on 3229 Posts
Likes Given: 5140

Default

The velocity of the bullet is indeed determined by the release of energy from the burning powder.

The kinetic energy the bullet carries is a function of velocity.

__________________
“We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.”


Winston Churchill
locutus is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 03:01 AM   #10
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: The Edge of Darkness
Posts: 6,495
Liked 4790 Times on 2679 Posts
Likes Given: 1736

Default

If you want to see amazing damage to steel targets hard or soft. Fire a .220 Swift with a 50 grs. bullet running 3,800 FPS. in to a metal plate.



__________________
nitestalker is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Speed loader>speed strip>moon clips LONGHAIR Revolver Handguns 5 10-14-2010 11:52 PM
High Speed camera = Slow-mo Gun Porn mesinge2 General Handgun Discussion 24 07-07-2010 07:44 PM
Speed Strips/ Speed Loaders? WannaGator Revolver Handguns 10 06-13-2010 03:40 AM
the lightweight high speed thing hdwrench Hunting Forum 6 03-02-2010 12:19 AM



Newest Threads