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Old 02-06-2010, 03:09 AM   #21
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Darin - You are welcome. Undertaking long range shooting is a FANTASTIC adventure that will NEVER pale to other things you to do in life. There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

A couple of weapons I think you should take a look at.

The Savage Model 10 FCP. This is a 24" heavy barrel in .308 that is a really good "base" package in your price range.

Weatherby Vanguard Rifles. They are basically a HOWA 1500 ( which is made in Japan and Tango HATES that ) but it has a few changes from the stock model. This is a very good rifle and they have 2 or 3 "levels" of accuracy that are guaranteed in a factory stick with factory ammo and that is BEFORE we teach you a few things about accuracy.

HOWA - As listed above. This is one of the best, in my opinion and those around the shop, "factory" rifle actions today. It is a solid, flat bottom base, a fully forged bolt and handle ( no brazing or threading ) with a Sako style extractor that you will never have to worry about.

There is a lot I can teach you. There is a lot of your money that I can talk you into spending. But before you do ANY research into "custom" parts, check out these factory sticks. They all offer models that under your $1000 price tag. They also offer GREAT factory rifles that can shoot very well right out of the box.

Take a look and see what you think of those options...

JD

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Old 02-06-2010, 10:39 AM   #22
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Ok first,
Tango. Just like Wolfdog said I highly doubt I could outshoot a Redryder BB gun let alone any name brand bolt gun I would buy.
Darin
I did not mean to implie that your shooting abilities were not good. Long range shooting is a skill that takes effort to master. I am a pretty fair shot out to 300 yards, once past thatis were it gets interesting. The guy I talked about with the FP basicly has a 1000 yard range in his back yard, and has been shooting long range since he could walk. He does things with a rifle that are pretty amazing.
That said I would go with the Savage rifle, from the things I have seen done on his range by him and a couple of others they are the best bang for the buck, and are easy to upgrade as your skill level at long range increases.
I would go with the 308 although 260 rem is a good choice as is 30.06 and a few others, but factory match grade ammo can be hard to find.
Buy the best optics and mounts you can, this can't be stressed enough.
Break in the barrel, even match grade after market barrels can benifit from lapping them.
Get to were you can shoot sub 1" inch groups at 100 yards, and then read everthing you can on shooting at longer ranges, there is a lot more to it than most people think.
Lastly about barrel length. you get a few extra feet per second with every extra inch of barrel. That isn't that important to accuarcy. The extra weight forward is more important as it helps hold the rifle steady, therefor a bull barrel 22-24 inches long is plenty. The longer the barrel the more likely you are to have harmonics issues. The only real advantage to long 26-30 inch barrels is if you are shooting open sights, were your sight radius, the distance between sights, is critical.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:10 PM   #23
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I did not mean to implie that your shooting abilities were not good. Long range shooting is a skill that takes effort to master. I am a pretty fair shot out to 300 yards, once past thatis were it gets interesting. The guy I talked about with the FP basicly has a 1000 yard range in his back yard, and has been shooting long range since he could walk. He does things with a rifle that are pretty amazing.
That said I would go with the Savage rifle, from the things I have seen done on his range by him and a couple of others they are the best bang for the buck, and are easy to upgrade as your skill level at long range increases.
I would go with the 308 although 260 rem is a good choice as is 30.06 and a few others, but factory match grade ammo can be hard to find.
Buy the best optics and mounts you can, this can't be stressed enough.
Break in the barrel, even match grade after market barrels can benifit from lapping them.
Get to were you can shoot sub 1" inch groups at 100 yards, and then read everthing you can on shooting at longer ranges, there is a lot more to it than most people think.
Lastly about barrel length. you get a few extra feet per second with every extra inch of barrel. That isn't that important to accuarcy. The extra weight forward is more important as it helps hold the rifle steady, therefor a bull barrel 22-24 inches long is plenty. The longer the barrel the more likely you are to have harmonics issues. The only real advantage to long 26-30 inch barrels is if you are shooting open sights, were your sight radius, the distance between sights, is critical.
Wolfdog, I think yo misunderstood my post. I completely agree with you and I seriously doubt my abilities are that of which a Redryder BB gun would hold me back...lol.

I compare shooting to the idiot that wants to buy a motorcycle, so the first thing they do is buy an effin' Suzuki GSXR1000 or a Yamaha R1 because the 600's are "too small/slow" or it "isn't enough bike" for them. I just have to laugh. There are very few people who can "outride a bike" and all of them are pro's. Same thing applies to guns. The gun is not inaccurate, the shooter is. At least in my case that would be true.

Thanks
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:01 PM   #24
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The 700 I was looking at was the SPS Varmint with the heavy 26" barrel and the adjustable trigger. Then when money came around I would put a H&S stock on it.
Well here is the SPS Varmint .223 I just picked up to fiddle with and funny enough I put it in a H&S stock I had laying around. I really just built it out of parts that were left over from other projects as a coyote gun to go with the 16" heavy barreled AR in the picture. Scope is a Nikon Ti 3.5-10.

I put one together in .308 for my buddy and it's a well behaved sub MOA gun that did not cost a boatload of money.

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Old 02-08-2010, 10:44 PM   #25
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I have a 308 and I love it. That being said there are so many other cartridges out there that will do the same thing only better faster and flatter.

The Weatherby and Howa are good sticks and they are built like a tank. JD is right I believe in buy american first.

Jd and I met over a long and at times heated discussion over which is better Howa or Remington. We agreed to disagree in the end. I have a deep down burning to get into the long range shooting as I have a F-class match that goes almost 6 months out of the year just up the road from me.

Remington makes good rifles well THEY USED TO. I dislike the poor quality and high prices they are charging now days. If you have no intention of modding your rifle or changing it in any way I would avoid the SPS line like the plague. The stock are the cheapest things I ahve ever came across and are flimsy and expand and contract with heat. I was on a ground hog hunting trip and I could see the stock change as it got hotter and hotter.

Savage, Howa, Weatherby, Browning all have much better fit and finish than Remington. You can get a savage or Howa for much less than a remmy with a quality stock on it. I got lucky and bought my remmy right before they sky rocketed in price. I paid $550 for my 223 VLS now that same gun is retailing in my area for $990. If you want to save up and get a gun also look at Coopers or Kimbers. They are pricey but boy do they shoot. and Coopers are OMG GOOD LOOKING....

I like savage because with a go, no-go gauge set a barrel wrench and barrels you can get the 308 and make it a 243, 260, 6.5-284, and any other cartridge that has a .473" head diameter. That gives you a lot of room to play in the end.

I look at savage like the AR-15 of the bolt gun world. Doesn't take much to switch to a different caliber.


Never forget to check the USED rack you can find good buys if you know what your looking for. A sporterized 03a3 would be a great starting point for a semi-custom build.

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Old 02-08-2010, 11:28 PM   #26
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It's funny that you replied to this. I didn't want to keep asking questions, BUT since you replied...LOL...I've got some more questions.

I talked to Bolosniper about why he uses Howa actions and from his info I started looking around. I can buy a Howa action with a 24" heavy barrel in any caliber for $420. What do you guys think? I can't do that with a Savage or a Remington. However, like you said Savage can be rebarreled easily. I am pretty well convinced I am either going to get the Howa or the Savage 10.

You mentioned there are rounds out there that will do what the 308 does only better, faster and flatter. Which round would you recommend, because if there is something smaller and cheaper then this might become a varment gun.

Checking for used guns around here is pretty well useless. If they have a gun that is of any quality, then they mark it down about $50 less than a brand new gun.

Thanks again

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"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
Thomas Jefferson
From the great speaker...er uh Barak Obongo

"Liberals make great proctologists. They're the only ones who truly know what the inside of an anus looks like."~me

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Old 02-08-2010, 11:38 PM   #27
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Well here is the SPS Varmint .223 I just picked up to fiddle with and funny enough I put it in a H&S stock I had laying around. I really just built it out of parts that were left over from other projects as a coyote gun to go with the 16" heavy barreled AR in the picture. Scope is a Nikon Ti 3.5-10.

I put one together in .308 for my buddy and it's a well behaved sub MOA gun that did not cost a boatload of money.

What kind of accuracy are you getting out of that 16" upper? It's sad to say, but I have that same upper and have no idea how well it shoots. I built it and then loaned it to my brother in law. I am going to get it back before too long and was thinking about throwing aa spare 3x9 on it and having a little fun.
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"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
Thomas Jefferson
From the great speaker...er uh Barak Obongo

"Liberals make great proctologists. They're the only ones who truly know what the inside of an anus looks like."~me
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:16 AM   #28
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What kind of accuracy are you getting out of that 16" upper? It's sad to say, but I have that same upper and have no idea how well it shoots. I built it and then loaned it to my brother in law. I am going to get it back before too long and was thinking about throwing aa spare 3x9 on it and having a little fun.

I hand fitted it to a RRA lower VERY tightly (takes a mallet to take the halfs apart) but I'm using a standard Mil Spec trigger group. That groups is with 69gr. LE Only Gold Dots. A 10 round group measures about the same just more ragged. With Federal 55gr. XM193 it runs just under MOA. I haven't run any match ammo through it yet.

It's a good upper. My buddy has the same one and he's gotten comparable accuracy results with the same ammo so they seem to be pretty consistent.

The scope in on Warne QD rings so I can take it off and throw an Aimpoint on it swiftly if I want to go for short range.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:07 AM   #29
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308 based rounds. The 308 has spawned the 243, 260 rem, 7mm-08, 358 win and TONS of wild cats. The 260 is making a come back slowly with the advent of F-class shooting. It is starting to get knowledge as a great 1k rounds.

The 243 is a superb round you can load bullets as light at 58gr for varmint shooting and up to 110 gr for deer hunting. There is a 25-08 but it is still a major wildcat cartridge with no factory brass or load data for it. The 7mm-08 is another great round for hunting and target shooting alike. The amount of match bullets in both 6.5mm and 7mm is growing everyday.

Now if you want a laser beam varmint cartridge then look no further than the good old 22-250. It too has a case head of .473". This cartridge with 50gr bullets will get you 4000+ FPS and with a 40gr might even get over 4300fps.

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Old 02-09-2010, 04:53 AM   #30
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I thought the M1's and M1A's were 30-06? If I could get an M1A or M14 I would in a heartbeat.
I didn't see this answered so....

M1 (Garand) .30-06

M1A (Springfield Inc.) .308

M14 7.62NATO
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