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Old 12-16-2010, 04:11 PM   #51
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I don't question you at all JD. I know you better than that.

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Old 12-16-2010, 04:20 PM   #52
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I don't question you at all JD. I know you better than that.
Thanks Bear - I would actually like you hear your thoughts on this new information in this thread, since you have been a gunsmith for most of your adult life.

The Savage "F" Class Action. Would this be a recommendation from you if Lon came into your shop and wanted to build a custom rifle for hunting coyotes from his backpack rest or for the local PD who had been granted federal money to add two new tactical rifles for their SWAT team?

What are your well educated and experienced thoughts?
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:57 PM   #53
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Situation handled with the typical aplomb and professionalism, IMO.

And, if Lon ventures into Bear's shop, he'll be expecting a healthy discount!

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Old 12-16-2010, 05:10 PM   #54
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As a matter of fact, before I retired I built a tactical rifle for the tri-county anti drug agency here. The action they selected was a Winchester model 70. The only specs in regards to performance is it HAD to be sub 1/2 MOA all the way out to max effective range with factory match ammo.

I didn't have much call for custom rifle builds using Savage actions. That should tell you something right there. Even though Savage rifles are allegedly good for factory F class, that don't automatically make them best for every class/use. To say that Savage actions are best for everything in a blanket statement is utterly foolish and reveals how much a person don't know. No 1 brand of action is "best" for every purpose.

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Old 12-16-2010, 05:37 PM   #55
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Thank you Bear. In a couple of paragraphs you have summed up what this thread has been about from the beginning. Multi use actions who have name brands that are thought better than they are for several intended uses.

For my own informational purposes, because I really wanted to know, I called Savage and spoke to Ted. Probably a sales/tech guy, but he was very friendly.

I asked him point blank if the "F" Class Actions were of the same construction and production time frames as something like their Hunter or Law Enforecement Series rifles.

The answer was no. The "F" Class is a specific action that goes through different & additional processes because it is intended for a different use clientele.

Basically it's not a "Factory" production action, even though it's produced by a factory. It's a semi custom. Which is another category all together.

End of discussion when it comes to this flare up.

F Class action = not a factory/production action = could be the best damn BENCHREST action out there, but does not apply in this thread about production, factory actions.

JD

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Old 12-21-2010, 09:52 PM   #56
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I have no doubt that the original post, and additional comments by it's author have "kicked the hornet's nest", so at this point might I offer my own personal observations.

While I don't partake anymore, I shot National Match Course H.P. Rifle Competition for many years, starting with a WW 2 Winchester Garand, ending up with bolt action rifles, mostly Winchester Model 70 Standard Target Rifles, but including a Remington 40X Rangemaster , which I believe was essentially a 700 action with a long stainless steel barrel, and a target stock.

The 40X came with a factory target, 3- 5 shot groups, indoors at 100 yards. The load specified was 38 or 39 grains of IMR 3031 with an unspecified 168 grain bullet. Average for 15 shots, 3- 5 shot groups was 0.43", slightly less than 0.5 minutes of angle. None of the Winchesters I had ever shot that sort of group, out of the box, though they all grouped inside 1" at 100 yards.

A lot of the technical comments on action design go over my head, so I will comment on personal shooting experience with Winchesters and the 40X. Might I mention here that I shot from the left shoulder, reaching over the stock, to work the bolt in rapid fire stages. With the Remington, this operation simply didn't work at all well, a "fat" stock, combined with a short bold handle and I believe for me, an overly long (27+ inches) barrel.

Shooting the NMC with Model 70's, I had no trouble at all shooting rapid fire stages, operating the bolt with the rifle remaining in my shoulder, just went much more smoothly than with the Remington. The Remington was rebarreled at least once, possibly twice, yet it's action never got to work like that of the any Model 70 I owned.

Over the years I had the Remington converted to left hand operation, ditto with one M.70. This helped some with the Remington, but Winchester' rifles still worked more easily, leading me to conclude that basic design considerations were involved, causing the difference. If one looks at the difference between the cocking cam surfaces at the back end of the bolts, the design differences appear fairly obvious, at least it so appears to me.

In any event, I do not recall ever having had a functional problem with the 40X, though I believe I had to replace a broken extractor once. It was back in 1964, at Fort Lee in Petersburg Va., some people were sighting in hunting rifles on the rifle range, One gentleman came out with a 700 in caliber 7mm mag. He fired a couple of rounds of factory loads and the bolt handle separated from the bolt body, leaving the rifle with a fired case in it’s chamber, and serious need of gun smithing. That is the only gross failure, nobody was hurt, that I had ever seen with a 700 action, so people can judge for themselves.
In conclusion, and I'm not familiar with the Howa Rifle, I'd stick with the Winchester Model 70. By the way, the several that I owned were all post 64 models.

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Old 12-22-2010, 04:10 AM   #57
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Default Which rifle is best

Which automobile is best? Best for what? Best looking? Best maintinace record? Best gas mileage?
It is the same with rifles. What one man likes, someone else doesn't. I have over 200 firearms. Would I pick one out and say it is the best? No because they each are best in their correct shooting area. I happen to like Savage factory rifles. Why? because of the price. And the accuracy. But an old Mauser 7x57mm will take a deer or coyote down just as well and costs even less. I never answer questions of this sort as there is no correct answer.
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Old 12-22-2010, 07:16 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
I called Savage and spoke to Ted. Probably a sales/tech guy, but he was very friendly.

I asked him point blank if the "F" Class Actions were of the same construction and production time frames as something like their Hunter or Law Enforecement Series rifles.

The answer was no. The "F" Class is a specific action that goes through different & additional processes because it is intended for a different use clientele.

Basically it's not a "Factory" production action, even though it's produced by a factory. It's a semi custom. Which is another category all together.

End of discussion when it comes to this flare up.

F Class action = not a factory/production action = could be the best damn BENCHREST action out there, but does not apply in this thread about production, factory actions.

JD
Without knowing exactly what these "different & additional processes" are, it is only speculation that this action could be considered "custom", semi or otherwise. It is a dimensionally identical action to everything else Savage produces.

Perhaps when the machines that mill them are retooled they run F-Class actions for the first several parts. Better, sharper tooling equates to better dimensional stability. Or perhaps they are handled differently with more time taken during the deburring, polishing, and fitting process by the more experienced veteran employees working on them. We simply do not know the specifics of this, and Savage doesn't appear to be talking about it anymore than they have to.

It stands to reason by just the cost of the Savage F-Class and Palma rifles there is a limit to the amount of extra curricular work that can be involved in their production. The rifles are very reasonably priced, period. My Savage Model 12-F/TR F-Class ran just over the $1,000.00 mark. By comparison my Model 10-FP was right around $650.00, or about 35% less. The 12-F/TR has a brush polished, heavy, 30" Stainless Steel barrel. The action itself is also polished Stainless Steel. The 10-FP has a shorter, lighter carbon steel barrel and action that receives Savage's spray coating of whatever that covers imperfections like Latex paint. The 12-F/TR also has a nice Laminated wooden stock with a built in Aluminum accessory rail and the Target Accutrigger, compared to the 10-FP's injection molded plastic stock and standard Accutrigger.

These features could easily account for the modest added cost of the 12-F/TR. That leaves little to nothing for any custom work, and or treatment above and beyond Savage factory produced rifles, a category which all of their rifles fall into. I would put the Savage F-Class and Palma rifles into much the same category as the Weatherby MOA Vanguard series. Those guns receive no special "treatment", but are simply hand picked after test groups are fired. The better shooting ones are put aside and have "MOA" engraved on the floor plate, and are boxed and shipped as MOA models with a higher price tag to reflect their better accuracy.

The Savage F Class rifles are nicely made, and perhaps a bit better finished than the run of the mill rifles. The barrels may be scrutinized a bit better, I don't know. But whatever attention they receive above and beyond would have to be quite limited based on the price of them alone. Bill T.
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:51 AM   #59
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Default I favor the Winchester product line...

But, the recent bad press about Remmington sounds like the bad press that
Toyota got recently! "HEY, a tool or a machine is always subject to a
problem if not cared for")! The Toyota problem with "runaway accerleration"
was easily solved by "turning off the engine"!!! Heck, even one of my friends
had that problem with a chevy astro van recently & he was not killed! He
simply turned the ignition key to off! And had it towed to the shop! But,
"rule # 1 with firearms" is ALWAYS point it in a safe direction when you load
or unload it! HECK,(even I'm not perfect)...I once shot the lower shelf of my
bookcase with an obscure handgun I had recently obtained & ruined one of
my books about cockateils!

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Old 05-03-2011, 01:35 AM   #60
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wow wish i had read this blog sooner just bought a 700 in a 308 sounds like i might have made a uninformed choice i read about the stiff trigger but thought if i didn't like it i could go to the gun smiths and have it backed of a bit i wont know till i get it and go down the range thanks for the imput dillinger. Im a first time shooter maybe i wont know any difference

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