Which Factory Rifle Action is "Best"? - Page 5
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:27 AM   #41
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What are you talking about? I posted several links to reputable sites that listed the Savage action as one of the best action of any action. Yes it was my opinion that means they are making one of the best factory actions. Since you missed that link here it is again.

More evidence? How about my link to the Savage video detailing their wins in F/TR competitions against custom built rifles with their "stock" rifles. What kind of proof do you want? It doesn't get any better than that. You know. Hard facts. Competition wins against top flight competition and all. That's evidence "Dillinger" (boy what wishful thinking that is - is it your "opinion" you rate using his name?).

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Old 12-16-2010, 02:42 AM   #42
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I did post links and you moved them. I posted links to one of the most respected sites on the web showing they agreed with my "opinion". I also posted a link to a site showing the success Savage has had in F/TR competition, a great way to judge the quality of any action. If you want to see the links they're moved to another thread. You can read them in this thread.

Do I have an opinion? You bet. So do you. I'm just not quite as arrogant about mine. I tried to be polite but you don't want that "Dillinger". You know my opinion on that too.

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Old 12-16-2010, 02:59 AM   #43
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LMAO!! Well "King", I have to say, you are doing a great job of making your fanboy arguement.

You link to 6mmbr and you link to a page that talks about "custom actions". For the record, that page is from 2007. There are A TON of custom rifle action makers out there right now that would decimate a lot of that list. Because, you see, the gun world constantly evolves.

Your claim is that because it's included on this list, from Copyright 2007, it's the best factory action out there. Okay. It was. When that was written. Will that make you happier? As I sense that nothing in your world is going to make you "happy".

Now, none of this is your own work. It's all posts on websites that have SPONSORS. They are also sent products to test that they talk up and rate. This isn't new news to anyone.

This quote from your link:

Quote:
Custom actions start at around $750 and can cost three times that amount for the jumbo 50 BMG actions
- should have been a great indicator.

So in a post that is about 2 1/2 years old, you came in with other people's work and a belief that Savage makes the best factory action going.

Everyone should do their own research based on their own needs. This post was originally presented because one of the most common beliefs is that since Remington and their 700 line is the most popular, hands down, that it is the best.

This thread started with a statement that read it was NOT for disrespect, it was for information based on real world, real gunsmithing experience and a picture by picture comparison of strong and weak points.

Claiming that we didn't read your "all knowing posts" is nothing more than a giant attempt to divert from the fact that you missed the point of this thread entirely and you wanted everyone to join you in the Savage camp.

Okay. Everyone. Take a look at Savage. See if they are the rifle for you. See if they offer a rifle in your price range with an accuracy guarantee. See if they offer an accuracy guarantee from the factory directly, like say, a Weatherby Vanguard built on a Howa that offers several configurations in SUB-MOA categories.

Facts. The forum is for spreading facts here at FTF. The opinion forums are located elsewhere. You know, the places where people don't challenge your opinion with relevant, hands on facts that are documented and not plagiarized from other people's dated work.
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ghidora View Post
I also posted a link to a site showing the success Savage has had in F/TR competition, a great way to judge the quality of any action.
Let me ask you this. Have you ever been to a world class competition? I haven't seen too many of your posts, so I don't obviously know your experience in the competition realm.

I have. In fact I have worked at both the Montana State Championship and the Washington State 600 yard & 1000 yard benchrest Championships.

NO ONE, and I do mean NO ONE, is showing up with a van that says "Remington" or "Weatherby" or "Savage" on the side with a stack of bone stock factory rifles that they hand to their "team shooters" who have a scope mounted to their specs, length of pull adjusted for them and then they put 50 rounds of test loads through it to fire form their brass, that they reload before the competition.

That doesn't happen.

You know why? Because as Tango has alluded too, EVERY SHOOTER of that category has a CUSTOMIZED rifle. Now, you can stand up in traffic court and swear on a stack of Bibles that you didn't run that red light. The same holds true for competition. You sign in that your weapon meets the requirements for that round, it's "inspected" for weight and all the usual "tricks" but they are NOT shooting "factory-untouched" rifles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ghidora View Post
Do I have an opinion? You bet. So do you. I'm just not quite as arrogant about mine. I tried to be polite but you don't want that "Dillinger". You know my opinion on that too.
Man. You are new here aren't you? If you read through the posts, you will see that I frequently am willing to entertain when someone thinks I am "wrong". But I do so when they bring facts they can prove to the table.

I moved the Savage posts to it's own thread to allow that thread to stand on it's own, for you Savage folks to discuss the highs and lows of that action ( you on one side and obviously Tango on the other ) that had NOTHING to do with this thread that was started. This thread was about people asking about "the best" versus "the most popular". Savage isn't one that comes up.

I'm sorry, but bottom line, 3 or 4 guys a months call the shop, or stop by to talk about a Savage build. Facts are facts.

As I said very clearly in my first few posts that perhaps you missed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger
The problem today is that the more heavily marketed product is sometimes interpreted as “The best” for those that don’t know anything more than what the glossy ads tell them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger
If you are a Remington bigot and think there is no other rifle in the world that is okay, this is America and it’s still a free country for now but there is a larger world out there beyond big green and you are missing out on a lot of good rifle products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger
I have been reading through a lot of the old posts online, all around the internet, and there is a common theme to people, new shooters, asking questions about “such & such” a rifle action and receiving anecdotal reports about how this person’s rifle works for them, but I don’t see much in the write ups about the rifle actions themselves. For the purpose of this discourse we are discussing the actions themselves which would be built into custom rifles by good smiths. Name brand recognition is one of the largest causes leading to buyer remorse that I see come through the gun shop where I hang out and do some part time apprentice work from time to time. People buy “X” brand, because they know people who use it, talked to someone who loves it, or read an article where “THIS” guy loves the product and everyone should love it. Just because you haven’t seen it or heard of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a great rifle.
My final thought for you is this:

If you read ANY report of ANY competition that is legimate and points are awarded, you will see a report of the rifle ( action ), the barrel, the brass and above all else THE GUNSMITH.

If you are shooting in a "Factory" class, why do you need a gunsmith? Because no one is shooting an out of the box factory rifle and placing in these high level competitions, let alone winning them.

I have told a thousand people, a good gunsmith can make ANYTHING shoot dimes for you if you have the skill. The difference is the amount of work it takes to get to that level of performance.

While you may want to fight because you think you are right and I am wrong, if you really read what has been posted in this and many, many other threads on building a good, quality boltgun to get the job done, you will see that there is a lot of hands on, factual knowledge and very little marketing, or linking to other websites' reviews, going on here.

JD
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:15 AM   #45
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I thought I would add a list of "proof" to go along with what I said before since you don't seem to believe me. Go ahead and tell me all these people are lying.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_M12-Fclass.htm

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/1767/savage-model-12-f-class/

http://www.usftrclass.com/bios.htm

http://www.ospreyrifles.com/stock.html
This one includes rifles built with Savage parts etc..

http://www.targetsportsmagazine.com/features/view/10259/project-rifle-in-stock-ftr-savage-part-three/
This one includes details on building a rifle from their action.


After you nitpick all these I'll find some more if you like. But I bet you're more knowledgeable than any of these people so fire away. And before you start, these sites aren't all paid for by Savage or people selling Savages. Maybe some are but I never dug that deep. You can do that and get back with me. They all say the same thing and I know some of those site don't accept advertising of any kind.

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Old 12-16-2010, 02:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ghidora View Post
If you come to an argument with me you better be a lot better than you have been or I will eat you alive. You see my name? I got that name by being the flame king of the internet. Yep I flame like a giant, 3 headed, flame breathing monster. I've had people go completely wacko trying to get the upper hand on me Johnny boy. Dillinger. You really do take the cake for cheesy monikers. At least I know mine's cheesy. That's the whole point. But King Ghidora is the flame breathing king and I will barbeque you before this is over.
Genius. I like this guy. Really.

edited to add: never bring a knife to a gunfight. 7 day sleepy time for you .
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:24 PM   #47
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Thank you Ineff!

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Sometimes you earthlings REALLY amaze me!

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Old 12-16-2010, 03:30 PM   #48
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King - Now when I read your posts, I get a sense that you are more interested in attacking me than even bothering to answer the very simple questions I have asked you concerning your position. In fact, you haven't answered any of them, but have demanded that I answer yours.

Frankly, this bores me as what I get from you are a bunch of chest thumping about knowing the best shooters in the world, being the King of the Flamers ( great title by the way, Tango will be having a field day with that one ) posts and that you think that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be arrogant, self centered and a complete nimrod.

What a delightful little experience this has been, talking two entirely different applications, derailing a thread that was designed to explain rifle PLATFORMS not the all mighty "F" Class benchrest shooting that seems to be your passion.

As for your little googled list, I shall entertain you one last time as I read through them all with great all the curiosity and enthusiasm of a reader enjoying his first mystery novel. Here is a small sampling of what I found out:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

Savage Rifles had 5 shooters represented at this shoot, of which there were 11 shooters total. The writer acknowledges that Savage was as impressive with their other shooters, but it was a team collective shoot and there were other actions that were used by the other 6 shooters.

The final team that shot for Team USA for the World Championship had the team captain, and the wind coach (1 Savage, 1 Wichita Action) and then they had (4) shooters and a reserve in case something went awry. Of the 4 plus 1 listed “shooters” it was two Savage and 3 other.

In 2008, at the Championships in England Savage was represented and did well. Once again, this comes back to the fact that these guys are very good shooters and they all have gunsmiths.

http://www.usftrclass.com/bios.htm

This is the bio of the team that shot above. Some shoot for Team Savage, some do not. What are they going to say in their bio? “I like Stolle, but I am shooting for Savage because they are my sponsor?” I fail to see what a bio brings to this discussion. If I said that Nike made the best shoes for everything and showed a bio of Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan, would that make it true?

http://www.ospreyrifles.com/stock.html

Osprey rifles happen to be a company that deals in Savage action rifles. I fail to see how this is relevant. Someone has chosen a product and gone after a marketing niche’. From their own site “Osprey Rifles specialize in Savage Arms rifles... from off-the-shelf factory offerings to full custom builds” Okay. They took a product and built a business model around it. So did about a million other small businesses since the dawn of time. That didn’t necessarily make them all the best in the world

From Osprey’s Homepage
“Take the F Class rifle, for example, specifically designed to be shot off a front rest and back bag it also makes a serious contender in the long range factory benchrest class, as UK competitors are finding out!”

Again, we are talking about a designed build. We aren’t talking production rifles for multiple applications, which is where this thread started. I don’t get the fascination with making post after post of “F” class shooters and competitions when this thread was never about building the ultimate benchrest rig, if it was, you would have seen a much different set of work on the first page.

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Old 12-16-2010, 03:44 PM   #49
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Well, it would appear KG's reported posts have resulted in a timeout.

I didn't touch the guy's account for the record. Check his profile page and you won't see my name listed a visitor.

I do thank the folks that reported the posts who felt they were over the line concering the personal attacks and to Ineff who made a non-involved nor emotional reaction/decision to what was happening based on forum rules and not someone's BP being up.

Thank you Gentlemen!

In the interest of fairness, in case anyone thinks I had someone else ban him because I lacked the balls or whatever, I will lift his ban right now and continue if that is what the collective wishes.

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Old 12-16-2010, 03:54 PM   #50
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So much for treating people on the Internet the same as you would in person. I'd love to see that guy walk into a bar with that kind of attitude, and chip on his shoulder. A trip to the Orthodontist would be next on his busy schedule. Bill T.

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