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-   -   Effectiveness of 7.62x51 M80? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/effectiveness-7-62x51-m80-25246/)

PanzerJager 03-27-2010 07:07 PM

Effectiveness of 7.62x51 M80?
 
I've seen ballistic gel tests of the 7.62x51 M80, and judging by them, common .308 seems to be a much better round for live targets. While I'm 100% confident that these are both highly lethal rounds and will probably kill in a single hit, do you guys think they'd stop a target immediatley, or would the M80 take more time for a target to become incapacitated, regardless of if it'll die later?

Ballistic Gel illustrations:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Page 21 and 22. You can see the Hornady OTM 7.62x51 causes a MUCH larger wound than the M80. What do you think would be a more effective cartridge? Has anyone had any experience with these rounds?

M14sRock 03-28-2010 12:40 AM

M80 is plenty effective.

But a .308Win SP is going to expand and impart more hydrostatic shock as well as tissue trauma.

You would not want to get shot with either.

cpttango30 03-28-2010 03:14 AM

Military can't use expanding bullets in combat.

That is why all military ammo is FMJ.

Fast Ed 03-29-2010 09:00 PM

Effective on what? Hunting? A soft point or plastic tipped bullet is made to expand in soft tissue and will be much more effective, and legal in some places, that any OTM type bullet.

Target shooting? The OTM bullets are typically more accurate than hunting bullets although some hunting bullets are very accurate.

Earlier poster is correct. Our military has no choice but to use OTM or FMJ bullets (non-expanding) in combat against Geneva Convention signers. We could use anything we wanted against non-signers, like our current enemies, but we want to make sure we don't offend anyone while we are killing them.

Fast Ed

Ruzai 03-30-2010 10:55 AM

I just love how we tip-toe around to not offend anyone that isnt in our current war.
Sometimes legistics get in the way of things that matter and no matter what anyone does, SOMEONE will be offended whether we like it or not. I say we just do what we gotta do to get it over with, of course that's just my opinion, take it for what its worth.

PanzerJager 03-30-2010 07:05 PM

Quote:

I just love how we tip-toe around to not offend anyone that isnt in our current war.
Sometimes legistics get in the way of things that matter and no matter what anyone does, SOMEONE will be offended whether we like it or not. I say we just do what we gotta do to get it over with, of course that's just my opinion, take it for what its worth.
I think the article agrees with you perfectly:
Quote:

It is patently ludicrous to conclude that incapacitating dangerous opponents in combat while using the same deforming bullets legally relied on daily by LE agencies is somehow inhumane and unlawful, while wounding or killing the same enemy using much more powerful destructive ordnance such as grenades, mines, mortars, artillery, rockets, bombs, CBU’s, FAE’s, and thermobarics is approved and condoned. This is neither logical nor just and in fact does nothing to limit the severity of battlefield casualties.
Also, how about the effectiveness of 5.56x45 M855 (at velocities over 2600 fps) compared to 7.62x51 M80? Is there some kind of factor regarding kinetic energy or temporary cavity that makes the M80 for effective for rapid incapacitation? I read plenty of complaints about M855's stopping power but have heard none about M80, yet the wound channels look in favour of M855. (I'm wondering which would drop a target faster, not necesarily kill instantly.)

robocop10mm 03-30-2010 07:15 PM

The primary advantage of the M-80 projectile over the M-855 is the penetration. The 7.62 round will fare much better against the cinderblock construction commonly used in Iraq. None of the military FMJ rounds are particularly effective against soft targets.

Yes, a .308 150gr soft point is much more effective against soft targets just as a .223 64gr SP is far more effective than the 62gr 5.56 round. The .308 is loaded to higher pressures and velocities than the NATO round.

alsaqr 04-02-2010 06:39 PM

The US M80 7.62mm round is not very effective especially when compared to the German 7.62 mm equivalent.

I often hunt hogs with the M193 5.56mm round. At ranges out to about 175 yards that little 55 grain bullet drops big hogs in their tracks when they are hit low behind the shoulder. The bullet penetrates 5-7", yaws and fragments. I would never think of shooting big hogs with the M 80 7.62mm round.

Col. Martin Fackler has treated more combat wounded troops than any other doctor alive.

Here is the ballistic gelatin comparison of various military bullets.

Military bullet wound patterns

PanzerJager 04-02-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:

The US M80 7.62mm round is not very effective especially when compared to the German 7.62 mm equivalent.

I often hunt hogs with the M193 5.56mm round. At ranges out to about 175 yards that little 55 grain bullet drops big hogs in their tracks when they are hit low behind the shoulder. The bullet penetrates 5-7", yaws and fragments. I would never think of shooting big hogs with the M 80 7.62mm round.

Col. Martin Fackler has treated more combat wounded troops than any other doctor alive.

Here is the ballistic gelatin comparison of various military bullets.
Thanks for the info :) I've read over that webpage before, but it's interesting you wouldn't even consider hunting with M80.

Oohrah 04-02-2010 09:55 PM

I'm not sure that I should enter this, as I'm old school and regret that there was a change over to what we have now. I can say the cailer you asked about 7.62 X 51, in that bullet weight is about equal to the 30-06. More than not, a single round is a stopper at ranges that the .223 can't approach for a number of reasons. Most of my Marines now serving have not many complaints of the .223 up to two hundred yards, and then a crap shoot. There are times when multiple hits to ends things are needed. No clue if alcohol is against their religion, but drugs are OK. I can tell you that if you place rifles of both calibers side by side, the 7.62 would disappear. However, all those who think the .223 is better then candy, the Marines are about to adopt a new bullet called an open point. It has some connection with Barnes, and the present weight will not be changed. Guess so they don't need to change barrel twist. I suppect these open points will be simular to the match bullets that some commercial manufacturers put out that will be like a a full jacketed hollow point. Won't know until they are out.
Bottom line is I'm prejudiced, give me a .308, and most likely a single round will do her up to extreme conditions and ranges.;)


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