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Old 07-09-2014, 12:53 PM   #601
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I am partial to bolt action rifles, some modern, but mostly mil-surps. The Mosin bug bit me hard enough have somewhere over 60 of the things from at least 8 countries. I have a handful of Finnish Mosins that are all outstanding shooters. The Soviet and Eastern block rifles are of varying quality but all shoot better than my skill level.

I have an authentic PU sniper that is deadly accurate, but I have a hard time with the scope picture. I did have two Chinese Mosins that were smooth-bores and would keyhole at 10 yards (if you could hit the paper). I sold them both to a Republican . I also have a Chinese M-44s that is in new condition and it is as nice a carbine as you could ask for, both in looks and performance.

My favorite centerfire, modern, bolt is a Austrian Voere in 30.06 from the early 60s. It is built on a Mauser action and is quite accurate and as smooth as German engineering can make it. It is the only modern centerfire rifle that I have scoped.

I also have some .22 bolts that are a lot of fun to plink with.

I shoot bolts far more often than semi-autos because I just plain like them.
A Democratic could have been better. IMO P.S. Nice collection

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Old 07-09-2014, 10:36 PM   #602
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Default Target vs. Hunting Rifles.

just want to express my thoughts on this, as some new to rifles bring this up in their posts or threads. they want a rifle they can use for target shooting and hunting.

many times i think they fail to understand that there is huge difference between the two, and each is designed for a specific type of shooting and it's design reflects that. they can be used alternatively, but at best are a compromise and not fully suited for the task they are trying to impart upon it.

hunting rifles are usually much lighter and have more slender barrels, made to be carried for extended periods of time over different terrain. most hunting rifles are not shot that much. they are generally shot some either sighting them in or working up loads, and then many times sit idle until hunting season. now this can vary depending upon the type of hunting the rifle is used for, just as there are differnet styles of hunting rifles. varmint rifles sometimes tend to be a bit heavier with heavier and longer barrels, and most varmint hunters will sit in one spot taking lots of shots. most other game hunters will usually only only fire a few shots in a season. some people think that slender sporter style barrels are not as accurate as heavier barrels, and this is simply a myth, said by those who don't know any better. the difference is, a heavier barrel can fire more shots, before the barrel heats up enough to make the shots wander vs. a sporter barrel. on a sporter barrel, you just need more time between shots. the rifling in the barrel is what determines the barrels accuracy for the most part.

target rifles by nature are designed for the most part for a very specific goal in mind, to make very small groups at a certain range. many of them tend to be much heavier than the same caliber in a hunting rifle. weight helps soak up recoil. the larger the caliber, the more weight becomes your friend. extended sessions with higher recoiling calibers will tire a person out. so if the weight is enough that a 300 WM feels like a 308, then a person can spend much more time behind the trigger firing more shots down ranger before getting tired out and bruised up. most target rifles are shot from benches or prone, so the weight issue is not an important factor in having to carry the rifle around like in hunting applications. most target rifles use very light weight triggers, that many of us would consider very unsafe for most hunting purposes. many target rifles use triggers that go well under 3 lbs. and IMO anything under 3 lbs. is unsafe for most hunting uses, and only belong on target rifles that are shot from benches.

scopes are another big factor that is usually decided by the purpose of the rifle. target scopes tend to be on the higher magnification side of the spectrum and most are poorly suited for most hunting applicattions other than sitting and varmint hunting. hunting scopes usually are used at the lower magnification levels that offer a much wider feild of view. the higher the magnification, the narrower the field of veiw gets to be.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:32 AM   #603
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just want to express my thoughts on this, as some new to rifles bring this up in their posts or threads. they want a rifle they can use for target shooting and hunting.

many times i think they fail to understand that there is huge difference between the two, and each is designed for a specific type of shooting and it's design reflects that. they can be used alternatively, but at best are a compromise and not fully suited for the task they are trying to impart upon it.

hunting rifles are usually much lighter and have more slender barrels, made to be carried for extended periods of time over different terrain. most hunting rifles are not shot that much. they are generally shot some either sighting them in or working up loads, and then many times sit idle until hunting season. now this can vary depending upon the type of hunting the rifle is used for, just as there are differnet styles of hunting rifles. varmint rifles sometimes tend to be a bit heavier with heavier and longer barrels, and most varmint hunters will sit in one spot taking lots of shots. most other game hunters will usually only only fire a few shots in a season. some people think that slender sporter style barrels are not as accurate as heavier barrels, and this is simply a myth, said by those who don't know any better. the difference is, a heavier barrel can fire more shots, before the barrel heats up enough to make the shots wander vs. a sporter barrel. on a sporter barrel, you just need more time between shots. the rifling in the barrel is what determines the barrels accuracy for the most part.

target rifles by nature are designed for the most part for a very specific goal in mind, to make very small groups at a certain range. many of them tend to be much heavier than the same caliber in a hunting rifle. weight helps soak up recoil. the larger the caliber, the more weight becomes your friend. extended sessions with higher recoiling calibers will tire a person out. so if the weight is enough that a 300 WM feels like a 308, then a person can spend much more time behind the trigger firing more shots down ranger before getting tired out and bruised up. most target rifles are shot from benches or prone, so the weight issue is not an important factor in having to carry the rifle around like in hunting applications. most target rifles use very light weight triggers, that many of us would consider very unsafe for most hunting purposes. many target rifles use triggers that go well under 3 lbs. and IMO anything under 3 lbs. is unsafe for most hunting uses, and only belong on target rifles that are shot from benches.

scopes are another big factor that is usually decided by the purpose of the rifle. target scopes tend to be on the higher magnification side of the spectrum and most are poorly suited for most hunting applicattions other than sitting and varmint hunting. hunting scopes usually are used at the lower magnification levels that offer a much wider feild of view. the higher the magnification, the narrower the field of veiw gets to be.
Axxe, I will disagree with you on several points about using a "Target" rifle for hunting.

I hunt with all of mine,and they are all pretty heavy. Ranging from 9 -15 pounds,I've never had any problems hunting with them. Whether I'm hunting from a stand or walking/stalking prey.
A lot also depends on the terrain that you plan on hunting in. If,you were going hunting in steep terrain or planning on walking several miles to get to a hunting area,a heavy rifle will be a burden.
The Ruger #1 300 WM that I used for many years for Elk hunting weighed about 8.5 lbs,and I considered it a lightweight rifle,and we walked all over the mountains with it.
When hunting with a heavier weight rifle,a sling is a must have. If you have a good sling,it will support the weight of any rifle,and make carrying it more enjoyable for the hunter. The size and conditioning of the shooter also has a great deal to add to the total equation. If the person is small,and or not in good physical shape,a heavier rifle will wear them out faster than if using a lighter weight rifle,but at the same time,a lighter rifle can also cause the same person to miss a trophy of a lifetime,since they cannot hold a lighter rifle as steady as a heavier rifle when your body is fatigued.

Triggers - If a person is used to shooting a lightweight trigger pull,it really makes no difference whether you're shooting targets or game. It all comes down to repetition. I hate "heavy" triggers,and a heavy trigger to me is a 4 pound pull. Most of mine are between 1.5 - 4 pounds,with 2-2.5 pounds being what I usually set them at. My finger is never near the trigger,until it is time to pull it!
Now,I would never suggest that a novice shooter start off shooting lightweight triggers,but for a shooter that is used to these types of trigger weights,it's not a problem on a hunting/target style rifle.

Scopes - A lot depends on the type of terrain you plan on hunting in.
If you hunt in an area that has thick cover,tree's,etc.,then a high magnification scope will be a bad idea. If you hunt in areas that are widely open with sparse cover,then it doesn't matter too much.
Most of my scopes are 6-24x or 4-16x on my larger caliber rifles. I've never had problems shooting anything with them,even at under 25 yards. My main gripe about guy's buying higher magnification scopes are they usually buy "cheap" scopes that have inferior glass and resolution. Cheap scopes,no matter what the magnification,usually hamper the shooters ability to see things at any distance.

Higher quality optics beat Cheaper scopes with higher magnification every time.
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:34 PM   #604
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Axxe, I will disagree with you on several points about using a "Target" rifle for hunting.

I hunt with all of mine,and they are all pretty heavy. Ranging from 9 -15 pounds,I've never had any problems hunting with them. Whether I'm hunting from a stand or walking/stalking prey.
A lot also depends on the terrain that you plan on hunting in. If,you were going hunting in steep terrain or planning on walking several miles to get to a hunting area,a heavy rifle will be a burden.
The Ruger #1 300 WM that I used for many years for Elk hunting weighed about 8.5 lbs,and I considered it a lightweight rifle,and we walked all over the mountains with it.
When hunting with a heavier weight rifle,a sling is a must have. If you have a good sling,it will support the weight of any rifle,and make carrying it more enjoyable for the hunter. The size and conditioning of the shooter also has a great deal to add to the total equation. If the person is small,and or not in good physical shape,a heavier rifle will wear them out faster than if using a lighter weight rifle,but at the same time,a lighter rifle can also cause the same person to miss a trophy of a lifetime,since they cannot hold a lighter rifle as steady as a heavier rifle when your body is fatigued.

Triggers - If a person is used to shooting a lightweight trigger pull,it really makes no difference whether you're shooting targets or game. It all comes down to repetition. I hate "heavy" triggers,and a heavy trigger to me is a 4 pound pull. Most of mine are between 1.5 - 4 pounds,with 2-2.5 pounds being what I usually set them at. My finger is never near the trigger,until it is time to pull it!
Now,I would never suggest that a novice shooter start off shooting lightweight triggers,but for a shooter that is used to these types of trigger weights,it's not a problem on a hunting/target style rifle.

Scopes - A lot depends on the type of terrain you plan on hunting in.
If you hunt in an area that has thick cover,tree's,etc.,then a high magnification scope will be a bad idea. If you hunt in areas that are widely open with sparse cover,then it doesn't matter too much.
Most of my scopes are 6-24x or 4-16x on my larger caliber rifles. I've never had problems shooting anything with them,even at under 25 yards. My main gripe about guy's buying higher magnification scopes are they usually buy "cheap" scopes that have inferior glass and resolution. Cheap scopes,no matter what the magnification,usually hamper the shooters ability to see things at any distance.

Higher quality optics beat Cheaper scopes with higher magnification every time.
you have brought up some good points Hillbilly, that i will address.

you are right, and my main focus of that post was on the general group or the average hunter or shooter. there are always exceptions to the rule as you have brought up. the weight of a hunting rifle is subjective and can vary from person to person. every person's endurance level and stamina will be vary and how much is too heavy for a hunting rifle will be a variable from one person to the next.

and i agree, quality lenses trump magnification for sure, and higher quality lenses cost more and will provide more clarity. a higher quality scope in a variable power can be very versatile, as you can dial it back to lower power to gain a wider field of view, then zoom up to a higher power for more pinpoint accurate shooting at longer distances.

what a person needs to do is access their rifle needs according to their own individual needs and wants.

the trigger weight is still a personal preference, and my suggestions were made by what i consider best for the average shooter or hunter. the more one spends practicing will be a far better determining factor in choosing a lighter or heavier trigger pull.

my father's Winchester M70 in 243, has a trigger that breaks at just under 2 lbs. and i have shot many rounds through that rifle in practice and have used that same rifle for hunting. would i suggest a 2 lb. or under trigger pull for the average 12 or 13 year old kid for his first 243 rifle for deer hunting? not hardly. would i suggest the same for someone who has sent thousands of rounds down range? IDK. that would be determined by their own preferences on what they felt was safe to use for hunting.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:44 PM   #605
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I started to respond earlier, but alas, my life called. I think both Axxe and Tx bring up valid points. The main thing I have noticed about Target/ precision rifles is they can be used for hunting. That is if Your not climbing in the Rockies. Tx touched on this. You also can't expect to shoot bench rest with a sporter barrel. Everything is a compromise. What I have noticed is many people thinking they can take a basic hunting rifle, slap a bipod, cheap glass that is way over powered, but still a POS, make it all black and think they have a precision rifle that with a 20x scope they can hunt with. Well hunting different game requires a completely different power according to the game. Most of my scopes are so different from each other, because of the intended use. Just as calibers vary.
Can I take out a HB .308 and hunt with it? I can. That is because I re-scoped the rifle to serve a different purpose for the enviroment I live in. I actually upgraded in glass although reducing in magnification. I really lost nothing. I gained from every angle as clarity is better, and low light is so much better. I can now hit a target/game on a full moon. Triggers, that is a subject for people that have been around that can never end. I am an old 2 stage Military trigger guy. I have never replaced a single trigger on any rifle. I have single set, 1 stage, and far to many 2 stage. I can feel a 2 stage trigger and know exactly when it will brake. Many of my Hunters are 2 stage, but They can dispatch game very quick. Not every squeeze is just so, and slow. You need to know exactly what will happen. Trigger time. OK need to fly, I finish later. JP
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Old 07-11-2014, 12:57 AM   #606
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Part 2:
The question is can a hunting rifle out shoot a HB target rifle. Maybe with the 1st cold bore shot, but then again that is all they really do.
I look at my Savage 110 in 7mm Rem Mag. It is outstanding on that 1st shot. It is a sierra lite, which I've never seen mention of except for any post I have written that included this rifle. I know of 1 other in .270. I'm not taking it to the range to fire 50 rounds. It see's maybe 5 rounds a year. 1 to check scope, 1 to harvest. 3 for making noise if I'm PO'ed at some a..hole for ruining my hunting. In the air of coarse. I've moved away from bigger is better, moved to classic rifles. Classic cartridges. I still hunt with irons, but have moved to some low recoil thumpers in glass smooth rifles for that. I had major neck surgery a few years back. Never thought I would ever be able to shoot certain calibers. It introduced me to a different world. I was a 700 yard High powered shooter. I became what I was 20 year before with more knowledge and skill. 1 shot is all it takes, just 1. You can shoot 3 round groups in high power, but 5 tell the tale. Each shot should be just like the 1st. One of my favorite rifles to shoot is a repro 1892 lever in .44-40. Although not a bolt, a wonderful rifle and very accurate. I can't ever give up those classic Mausers. .223/5.56 to 9.3x57, and yes a 9.3x62 is on the horizon.
I also love, and I mean love my "sniper" I have 2 WWII Snipers. Even with 3.5 and 4x scopes they are wonderful. Most people look at price point when buying a rifle or scope. Not a bad thing, but... What will do the intended job consistently and last. You don't always need top end, but at least understand what the rig you have is really capable of, And what are yours. I would recommend 1000 rounds of ammo to become proficient w/ a new rifle/caliber, unless you have 40+ years behind you. That is unless you are a weekend warrior with to much cash and plenty of camo.
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:50 AM   #607
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Default Heavy Barrels vs. Sporter Barrels.

this is stricly my observations and experiances of what i have seen myself over the years.

many people assume a heavy barreled rifle is more accurate than a sporter barreled rifle. i don't adhere to that line of thought. IMO, the quality of the rifling is the key factor, not the contour of the barrel. a quality sporter barrel will be much more accurate than a poor quality heavy barrel all day long.

now where a heavy barrel does have an advantage if the rifling is of equal quality, is the ability to shoot more rounds before heat starts to effect the group size. so if a person takes more time between shots with a sporter barrel, it can be every bit as accurate if all other factors are equal.

a heavier barrel adds weight, which can also be helpful in absorbing recoil. this in itself doesn't directly relate to accuracy, but can indirectly, because the shooter is less fatigued from recoil.

barrel length can also add or subtract some amount of velocity from a given round and this can vary by a number of factors, from each different cartridge, bullet weight and type, powder type and charge and other variables. some cartridges like longer barrels, while some are just as happy with shorter barrels.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:00 PM   #608
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My 2c worth on this is that if your going to go chasing goats,pigs deer etc and your hunting mountainous or walking for a long time in country that just doesn't allow you to bring a car/4wd close to where your hunting then you want a rifle that comes in at around 6-8lbs tops regardless of calibre for the simple fact that at the end of the day anything over that weight is going to feel like it's doubled up.

When I had my M98 actioned 30/06AI built for chasing goats and pigs in very mountainous river country around here I topped it off with a Leupold 6x M8 scope and the total package weighs in around 6lbs making it a pleasure to carry all day but the trade off is that if I start to empty the 4 shot mag plus the 1 up the spout in a hurry on a mob of pigs you get to feel the love of it being so light but it's a small price to pay compared to lugging what will feel like a rucksack full of bricks around at the end of the day.

Heavy barrelled varmint/target type barrels on a hunting rifle if your hoofing around all day is just a step backwards especially if you only get the 1 shot of a lifetime at a big set of horns/antlers and your too tired to hold the scope up to get that 1 shot of a lifetime away.

Leave the heavy barrelled stuff to long range pest busting from a rest.

Just my opinion from years ago hoofing around very steep goat country when I was young ,fit and stupid compared to now old, buggered and not much smarter.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:01 AM   #609
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weight of a hunting rifle is subjective and a personal preference. some will trade off some weight and suffer the agony of the recoil if they have to lug that rifle over hill and dale all day long stalking a game animal.

everything is a trade-off at some point. weight vs. recoil. sometimes it's all about what each individual hunter is will to sacrifice in which direction in the weight vs. recoil situation. type of hunting and terrain play huge factors in this as well. age and physical fitness play a huge part in this as well. what i was willing to endure at 20, is not what i'm willing to endure at 50!

most all of my rifles are pretty much shot from a bench these days, and hardly ever even wear a sling either. so weight of the rifle is not much of a concern to me as it was in the past.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:27 PM   #610
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For hunting, I want something rugged. I'm typically not going to walk any further than I would be willing to drag a dead dear. 6 vs 8 lbs. won't make a difference for the distances I travel, especially slung over the shoulder. No need for a bull barrel because I am not going to take 10-20 shots in the field. One is usually enough for medium to large game.

While some of the newer rifle designs are very accurate, I like a beefy action (Remington 700 or the like). Last year I did about 15 summersaults down a ridge while carrying my rifle. When I tested it later it was 100% on target at 200 yds. Why I'd ever need another hunting rifle, I don't know.

Lots of tree stand hunting in these parts, I am not a big fan of this but if you do hunt from a tree stand why not get the best shooting rifle you can find regardless of weight?
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