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Old 07-27-2013, 05:40 AM   #221
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Those Winchesters are some of the very nicest rifles,along with the 243,what a whitetail hunting package.

The 6mm Rem and Win 243 are so close together in performance they are nearly identical,the 6mm cartridge is based from a necked down 257 Roberts case with a bit larger case capacity than the 243 and a longer case neck.

Thanks,not sure the wife liked that reasoning?,I need another gun because i've got all these bullets! hahaha
my father bought that Winchester M70 in 1969 or 1970 brand new. it was the first centerfire rifle i shot and the one i learns to shoot. it was also the rifle i used as a youngster to take my first few deer with. my father used to reload and target shoot with that rifle quite a bit.

just last summer before last, he brought the rifle over to the house and wanted me to clean it up for him and try it out. he said it hadn't been out of his safe in about 15-16 years! well i tore it down and cleaned and oiled it. he found some 85 gr. loads he had put together about 20 years ago for me test out after replacing the over 40something year old 3-9x40 Redfield he had put on it. once i got it dialed in, it shot a group that could be covered up with a dime, and room to spare and all three were touching. shooting that rifle brought back some fond memories of past times with my father, as it had been close to 30 years since i had even shot that rifle. i only wished i had thought to take some pictures of it when i had at the house cleaning it now. it's still to this day one of my favorite rifles and still looks great.
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Old 07-27-2013, 05:45 PM   #222
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my father bought that Winchester M70 in 1969 or 1970 brand new. it was the first centerfire rifle i shot and the one i learns to shoot. it was also the rifle i used as a youngster to take my first few deer with. my father used to reload and target shoot with that rifle quite a bit.

just last summer before last, he brought the rifle over to the house and wanted me to clean it up for him and try it out. he said it hadn't been out of his safe in about 15-16 years! well i tore it down and cleaned and oiled it. he found some 85 gr. loads he had put together about 20 years ago for me test out after replacing the over 40something year old 3-9x40 Redfield he had put on it. once i got it dialed in, it shot a group that could be covered up with a dime, and room to spare and all three were touching. shooting that rifle brought back some fond memories of past times with my father, as it had been close to 30 years since i had even shot that rifle. i only wished i had thought to take some pictures of it when i had at the house cleaning it now. it's still to this day one of my favorite rifles and still looks great.
Sounds like you have the Winchester all shined up and clean for your Dad and zeroed in with some quality handloads,nice shooting!

Those family hunting heirlooms sure are special with all the past hunting memories,my Dad has a Remington 721 280 Remington that he bought late 50s early 60s? Everytime I see that rifle it's like seeing an old friend or hunting buddy! lol
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:54 PM   #223
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lets discuss making a bolt action more accurate. thoughts and suggestions are welcome. these are just some of mine in no particular order.

trigger. the trigger pull is very important to accuracy. a heavy and long trigger pull can pull your shot off target. some of my thoughts on this are purely my own preferences and opinions. for the sake of safety and liability, i will also add this. the trigger is one of the components that plays a huge part in the safe operation of the firearm. please don't adjust or modify the trigger or it's components usless you are qualified or have the proper skills and tools to do it. this not an area to be backyard Bubbafying your firearms by any means. if in doubt, take it to a competent gunsmith for triiger work.

i like to see no less than about 3 lbs. of trigger pull weight on a hunting rifle. IMO anything less than 3 lbs. can be unsafe for the majority of people on a hunting rifle.

now a rifle that is strictly a target and bench rifle, that is never used for hunting, the less the better. personally, anything below 2 lbs. is where i want to be for a bench shooter. another area as far as safe operation for a target or bench rifle in the matter of trigger adjustment is the fact that a factory trigger can usually only be lowered so much before it's operation is unsafe. if still desiring much less than what is able to be done safely, then it's time to start thinking about an aftermarket trigger like a Timney, a Jewell, a Jard or many of the other trigger makers. these are designed for very low trigger weights, (some even down in the ozs.) and still operate safely.

keeping the trigger assembly cleaned and lightly oiled will help make the trigger operated much more efficiently as well. a rifle that's used for hunting may need more cleanings per year than a rifle strictly used at the range or is bench shooter. many times the only proper way to clean the trigger assembly is removing the action from the stock and flushing it oout with a cleaner. it's my prefered method. i used brake cleaner myself and then lightly oil all the moving parts. Kano Kroil is a good product i like to use here as well.

next installment i will discuss other methods of improving the accuracy of the bolt action rifle.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:40 AM   #224
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What about glass bedding and pillar bedding?
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:50 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Axxe55 View Post
lets discuss making a bolt action more accurate. thoughts and suggestions are welcome. these are just some of mine in no particular order.

trigger. the trigger pull is very important to accuracy. a heavy and long trigger pull can pull your shot off target. some of my thoughts on this are purely my own preferences and opinions. for the sake of safety and liability, i will also add this. the trigger is one of the components that plays a huge part in the safe operation of the firearm. please don't adjust or modify the trigger or it's components usless you are qualified or have the proper skills and tools to do it. this not an area to be backyard Bubbafying your firearms by any means. if in doubt, take it to a competent gunsmith for triiger work.

i like to see no less than about 3 lbs. of trigger pull weight on a hunting rifle. IMO anything less than 3 lbs. can be unsafe for the majority of people on a hunting rifle.

now a rifle that is strictly a target and bench rifle, that is never used for hunting, the less the better. personally, anything below 2 lbs. is where i want to be for a bench shooter. another area as far as safe operation for a target or bench rifle in the matter of trigger adjustment is the fact that a factory trigger can usually only be lowered so much before it's operation is unsafe. if still desiring much less than what is able to be done safely, then it's time to start thinking about an aftermarket trigger like a Timney, a Jewell, a Jard or many of the other trigger makers. these are designed for very low trigger weights, (some even down in the ozs.) and still operate safely.

keeping the trigger assembly cleaned and lightly oiled will help make the trigger operated much more efficiently as well. a rifle that's used for hunting may need more cleanings per year than a rifle strictly used at the range or is bench shooter. many times the only proper way to clean the trigger assembly is removing the action from the stock and flushing it oout with a cleaner. it's my prefered method. i used brake cleaner myself and then lightly oil all the moving parts. Kano Kroil is a good product i like to use here as well.

next installment i will discuss other methods of improving the accuracy of the bolt action rifle.
I know I'm going against popular opinion here but for a true hunting rifle I want a two stage trigger. A crisp and light trigger with no creep on the bench is the way to go, but for shooting when you don't have a rock solid rest such as standing, kneeling, sitting, or just leaning against a tree or rail on a stand I want some movement in the trigger. In situations where you aren't on a rock solid rest there is going to be movement in the gun. You are going to watch the crosshairs or site bob and weave. When you first start a trigger back that ever so slight bit of pressure from your trigger finger is going to introduce even more movement and throw you off target. The travel in a two stage trigger gives you time to recover from that initial movement created by the pressure from your trigger finger and it lets you time the shot so that it goes off when the site gets back on target.

I figured all that out way too many years ago on the rifle team in high school. I could shoot slightly better with a crisp and light trigger in the prone position, but I (and everyone else on the team) shot better by far with a two stage trigger in all the other positions. Before that experience I would have agreed with popular opinion but after that I want some travel in a trigger.

Just my .02


The most important thing to me for improving the accuracy of an old rifle is getting rid of all the copper fouling in the barrel. I'm a firm believer in JB bore cleaner but use it sparingly (every few hundred rounds). I've got a 1944 Lee Enfield that shot over 3" in groups when my Dad used it. I read and article years ago about breaking in barrels and cleaning them and learned about JB from that article. I tried some and my groups with the same factory ammo my Dad used went from over 3" to 1". I've been sold every since and I still use the break in process described in that article on every new rifle I get.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:58 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
I know I'm going against popular opinion here but for a true hunting rifle I want a two stage trigger. A crisp and light trigger with no creep on the bench is the way to go, but for shooting when you don't have a rock solid rest such as standing, kneeling, sitting, or just leaning against a tree or rail on a stand I want some movement in the trigger. In situations where you aren't on a rock solid rest there is going to be movement in the gun. You are going to watch the crosshairs or site bob and weave. When you first start a trigger back that ever so slight bit of pressure from your trigger finger is going to introduce even more movement and throw you off target. The travel in a two stage trigger gives you time to recover from that initial movement created by the pressure from your trigger finger and it lets you time the shot so that it goes off when the site gets back on target.

I figured all that out way too many years ago on the rifle team in high school. I could shoot slightly better with a crisp and light trigger in the prone position, but I (and everyone else on the team) shot better by far with a two stage trigger in all the other positions. Before that experience I would have agreed with popular opinion but after that I want some travel in a trigger.

Just my .02


The most important thing to me for improving the accuracy of an old rifle is getting rid of all the copper fouling in the barrel. I'm a firm believer in JB bore cleaner but use it sparingly (every few hundred rounds). I've got a 1944 Lee Enfield that shot over 3" in groups when my Dad used it. I read and article years ago about breaking in barrels and cleaning them and learned about JB from that article. I tried some and my groups with the same factory ammo my Dad used went from over 3" to 1". I've been sold every since and I still use the break in process described in that article on every new rifle I get.
I have heard that the JB bore cleaner is abrasive and will wear away the rifling in a barrel. I have a pair of M53 Mosins and I'm pretty sure its copper fouling, but the rifling definitely shows its age and I don't want to wear away any more than I have to. What are your thoughts about the bore compound?
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:07 AM   #227
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What about glass bedding and pillar bedding?
Bedding can help a rifle that doesn't shoot great,but isn't necessary with all stocks. I will only bed a rifle if it needs it.
I have several rifles in factory and custom stocks that have never needed bedding of any type,but I have relieved the stocks of any pressure points that shouldn't be there.
If the inletting isn't done correctly,then glass bedding or pillar bedding will help solve those problems.

A free floated barrel is a must have for accuracy in almost any bolt action rifle,as is tightening the action screws to the correct torque settings.
The torque on the action screws is a major reason that rifle's aren't consistently accurate.

I agree with Axxe,a good trigger is a must have for any rifle to be accurate. I also agree,If you don't have the knowledge to adjust or work on a trigger correctly,and also don't know how to test it without firing a live round - Leave it to a professional.
I love lite/smooth triggers in all of my guns. A 4 lb trigger pull,is very heavy in my opinion,and most of mine are 2-3 lb triggers,but I also have a couple that can be set down to around 4 oz safely. I have them set around 1.5 lbs,and they are on long range shooting rifles.

Correct length of pull and a consistent cheek weld are two of the most important things when it comes to accuracy.
If the stock doesn't fit you,or if you don't shoot the rifle with your head set in the same exact position every-time you pull the trigger,you cannot shoot accurate.

To me,the absolute biggest factor on consistent accuracy is handloading ammo for each caliber/rifle I shoot. I spend countless hours testing bullets/primers/powders,as well as different seating depths finding the best combinations for each of my rifles.
Very few rifles will ever have their best accuracy with a box of factory ammo,and I don't ever waste time buying any.
You also need to keep good logs of your loads,what shoots good in one type of outside temperature range,may shoot terrible 4-5 months later,but another load that you worked up with the same bullet might be the ticket for that type of temperature range.
Different powders are temperature sensitive,and will shoot at completely different pressures from when you first tested that load and it shot great then,but a 30-40 degree temperature change can wreak havoc on your groups.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:14 AM   #228
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I know I'm going against popular opinion here but for a true hunting rifle I want a two stage trigger. A crisp and light trigger with no creep on the bench is the way to go, but for shooting when you don't have a rock solid rest such as standing, kneeling, sitting, or just leaning against a tree or rail on a stand I want some movement in the trigger. In situations where you aren't on a rock solid rest there is going to be movement in the gun. You are going to watch the crosshairs or site bob and weave. When you first start a trigger back that ever so slight bit of pressure from your trigger finger is going to introduce even more movement and throw you off target. The travel in a two stage trigger gives you time to recover from that initial movement created by the pressure from your trigger finger and it lets you time the shot so that it goes off when the site gets back on target.

I figured all that out way too many years ago on the rifle team in high school. I could shoot slightly better with a crisp and light trigger in the prone position, but I (and everyone else on the team) shot better by far with a two stage trigger in all the other positions. Before that experience I would have agreed with popular opinion but after that I want some travel in a trigger.

Just my .02


The most important thing to me for improving the accuracy of an old rifle is getting rid of all the copper fouling in the barrel. I'm a firm believer in JB bore cleaner but use it sparingly (every few hundred rounds). I've got a 1944 Lee Enfield that shot over 3" in groups when my Dad used it. I read and article years ago about breaking in barrels and cleaning them and learned about JB from that article. I tried some and my groups with the same factory ammo my Dad used went from over 3" to 1". I've been sold every since and I still use the break in process described in that article on every new rifle I get.
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I have heard that the JB bore cleaner is abrasive and will wear away the rifling in a barrel. I have a pair of M53 Mosins and I'm pretty sure its copper fouling, but the rifling definitely shows its age and I don't want to wear away any more than I have to. What are your thoughts about the bore compound?
two stage triggers are a different style and require a different set of learning to use them effectively. some people like them, some don't. i personally don't have a lot of experiance with them. i think they are one of those personal preferences on having or not having them. even some of the aftermarket trigger makers have them as an option for those who prefer them.

ahhhhh.....breaking in a barrel! i am not even going to touch that one. there are so many different points of views as to whether it works or it doesn't. whether it's needed on most modern rifles. i think that a person needs to read up on that andmake their own decision as to whether it's needed or is effective for their rifle and needs.

bore compounds have their uses for certain needs. IMO i feel they should be used sparingly. it is abrasive, and that's how it works. i don't think it's something that needs to used as regular maintenance. i also feel it should be used when regualr bore cleaners are ineffective or in the case of buying a used rifle that has seen lots shooting without regular bore cleaning to establish a clean bore. i also know that a cleaner and smoother bore is less prone to fouling and copper and lead buildup.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:28 AM   #229
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i will touch on the same points as TXhillbilly. can bedding increase accuracy. yes and no. i agree with him, that some will need it, and some don't. every rifle is unique and different. i have one Remington M700 in 7mm Rem. Mag. that with my handloads will drop rounds into practically the same hole at 100 yards. it has a factory synthetic ADL stock that has never been bedded. i promise that rifle will never be bedded! because i seriously doubt that with glass bedding i could ever improve upon how in performs now.

i have one rifle, a Marlin XS7 in 7mm-08, that will get bedded in the future, because it's accuracy fell off somewhat when i replaced the factory synthetic stock with a Boyd's laminate. it's not a huge difference, but i can tell it's there, and it bugs me. but i will hold off until i replace the barrel sometime in the future.

bedding can improve accuracy in some rifles. i have another M700 in 30-06 that was made in 1970, that at some point someone replaced the stock with an aftermarket walnut stock. glassbedding improved it's groups quite a bit.

any rifle you are thinking about glass bedding needs to be done after assessing if it needs to be done. as i said each and every rifle is unique and different. glass bedding isn't very difficult if you pay attention to the instructions and are careful. read up on them and study some videos about doing it to see if you want to attempt it or not.

pillar bedding is another area that i need learn about more. i understand it's theory, and i have couple of Marlin X7's that are factory pillar bedded. but i need to study up on actually doing it more.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:32 AM   #230
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I have heard that the JB bore cleaner is abrasive and will wear away the rifling in a barrel. I have a pair of M53 Mosins and I'm pretty sure its copper fouling, but the rifling definitely shows its age and I don't want to wear away any more than I have to. What are your thoughts about the bore compound?
I had the same concerns when I first tried it, but after using it and seeing what it does I don't worry about it anymore. Actually the guy I bought it from at the gun shop warned me about it being bad for the barrel and said the guy in the article I read didn't know what he was talking about. The guy in the article was Kenny Jarred and he made me a believer. It is a slight abrasive and would cause problems over time but your only running a rod down the barrel with it 10 times (or there about - per the directions on the can). Just take a patch and wrap it around a slightly warn wire brush and then add JB to the patch. My thinking is that sand paper couldn't do but so much damage only ran through the barrel 10 times so JB can't be that bad? But like I sad, use it sparingly. It's not something you use for a normal cleaning, and a good normal cleaning process will help prevent copper from building up to the point that you need JB. But don't get caught up in worrying about having a perfectly pristine bore either. A little fouling is usually needed for a gun to shoot it's best.

I've been using it for 20years now and my old .303 still has its rifling, and it shoots a lot better.

Last edited by TLuker; 08-11-2013 at 02:39 AM.
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