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Old 10-24-2011, 03:36 AM   #41
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Two at once was very lucky. They also had a very very very talented ba#$@%& behind that rifle.

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Old 10-24-2011, 05:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Both are proprietary rounds and neither is "dead" or "dying" anytime soon.

But a closed bolt single action is always going to be more accurate than a semi automatic platform like the Barrett.

The Chey-Tac .408, right now, is the most accurate performer on the block.

While the .416 has appeal to some, it's still just as much a "closet" round as the C-Tac was a few years ago before they took the World Title for tightest group.
I have always wondered how they do this. At the ranges they set that record at, its really a crap shoot. The enviroment such an impact that it really is luck to an extent. unless there is some huge indoor range with fancy tech to prevent wind, and differences in pressure and humidity and temperature all the way down it.... I feel like making something like that would be virtually impossible... idk, it has always made me wonder how much the tightest group is really worth bragging about. if the enviroment didn't work just right than there is no way to know for sure which round is the best... but then again, its much more the rifle than the cartridge.


Anyway, the the .416 was originally only used in a barret single shot rifle, they just recently put it into a m82 bolt action. Still hasn't reached the m107 though. I know that on more than one occasion the .416 has been demonstrated to put rounds on target at 2500 yards with relative "ease". The main thing the cheytac has going for it is the rifle. The intervention is a masterpiece and would probably send a .416 down range just as effectively as it did the .408 if it was chambered to do so.

.............


To follow the thread, I love older sniper systems, and accurate bolt guns in general. This new idea of shooting people from over a mile away is just ridiculous to me, there is very rarely a reason to do that. Inside of 1000 yards, the older bolt guns can take targets just as effectively as the new super cracked out rounds. Sure a .50 bmg will blow a person apart at 500 yards, where a .308 will "only" kill them at 500 yards. The problem is that you can only be so dead, is the guy who is in 2 peices somehow more dead than the guy who doesn't have a pulse? Dead is dead....
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:41 AM   #43
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best is kinda variable. the most effective sniper rifle ever issued that had the largest impact was the mosin 91/30 PU sniper. the one that changed us military doctrine was the remington 700/winchester model 70 in vietnam in 30-06.

i would say the allround best would be the m40 us military sniper of current issue. its used to great effect for about every situation.

one of the most effective snipers in history was the simo hayha that c3 referred you to. he did it with a version of the mosin 91/30 and open sights in about 100 days.

so saying whats best... it just depends
Not to be a smart ass but. The m-40 you refer to is a Remington 700 it is what the marines call it. In the army form it is an m-24. Both still in use today. Now the caliber of these was and most still are in 308 not 30-06. But all getting put thru a transition to the 300 win mag!

Now I would have to say that a very good sniper rifle is/was the army m-21 which is a match grade m-14. Not only very accurate but also one of the first SASS (semi auto sniper system). A great concept.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:51 AM   #44
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Now the caliber of these was and most still are in 308 not 30-06.
What you say is of course true but at the same time it was the 700 in 30.06 form that changed US military doctrine just as JonM said. It was largely due to the effectiveness of a guy named Carlos Hathcock. He was one heck of a sniper and he used a Winchester 70 30.06 mostly although he did use a Browning M2 machine gun at times.. It was Hathcock and a few others that made the Pentagon realize that training snipers between wars was the smart thing to do. Before it was hit and miss mainly training snipers during major wars and then letting the program fall off between wars. That happened in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. After Vietnam they realized that teaching sniper skills and keeping those skills alive instead of having to learn them all over again when war came along was the way to do things. I'm sure that's why Jon said what he did. I just saw an interview with Hathcock on the Military Channel recently. I also heard the story of a trained sniper who held off a very large number of VC after their helicopter was shot down and pretty much everyone else was unable to return fire. He had a Starlite scope and he used it to great advantage even though it got knocked off zero badly during the crash. He would check the enemy movements and fire at them with a M16 then switch back to his sniper rifle and check what they were doing again. Eventually he fired a round with the sniper rifle and noticed that it hit very low and to the left. A little bit of Kentucky windage and he was nailing VC in the dark which made them think they were fighting a large force and caused them to retreat. He even stayed behind when the first rescue chopper came because his commander was pinned under the downed chopper. Eventually another helicopter came and they were able to free the commander.

Incidents like that proved the value of the sniper in not only holding off superior forces but also in terrorizing the enemy. Which brings me to why I think people like to use the Barrett rifles for sniper work. I just saw another story from Afghanistan where a small team of snipers was able to not only hold off a large force but they even kept them from installing IED's along a key road. They were also able to nail a guy setting up a mortar at around 1300 yards I think it was. Not only did they kill him but they pretty much disentegrated the upper part of his body. The sight of the enemy being killed in such a horrific manner caused the other forces in the location to pull back completely opening a key road. I think it's things like this that make the .50BMG such a weapon of war. Not only does it kill but it terrorizes much like the "death from above" attacks in Vietnam. Many think and thought that it would be better to continue the death from above tactics (carpet bombing) but there is a lot of collateral damage in an attack like that and in this day of our media going over and giving aid and comfort to the enemy we need to keep such killings held in check as much as possible. Personally I think a charge of treason against a few of our "journalists" (who don't take sides in any war) would work better but they don't ask me. At any rate the .50BMG gives us pinpoint control while still firing from such a long way off that the enemy doesn't know where it's coming from and seeing your friend's head suddenly disappear before you ever hear the rifle fire gives our troops a psychological edge and stuff like that matters in war.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:10 PM   #45
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What you say is of course true but at the same time it was the 700 in 30.06 form that changed US military doctrine just as JonM said. It was largely due to the effectiveness of a guy named Carlos Hathcock. He was one heck of a sniper and he used a Winchester 70 30.06 mostly although he did use a Browning M2 machine gun at times.. It was Hathcock and a few others that made the Pentagon realize that training snipers between wars was the smart thing to do. Before it was hit and miss mainly training snipers during major wars and then letting the program fall off between wars. That happened in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. After Vietnam they realized that teaching sniper skills and keeping those skills alive instead of having to learn them all over again when war came along was the way to do things. I'm sure that's why Jon said what he did. I just saw an interview with Hathcock on the Military Channel recently. I also heard the story of a trained sniper who held off a very large number of VC after their helicopter was shot down and pretty much everyone else was unable to return fire. He had a Starlite scope and he used it to great advantage even though it got knocked off zero badly during the crash. He would check the enemy movements and fire at them with a M16 then switch back to his sniper rifle and check what they were doing again. Eventually he fired a round with the sniper rifle and noticed that it hit very low and to the left. A little bit of Kentucky windage and he was nailing VC in the dark which made them think they were fighting a large force and caused them to retreat. He even stayed behind when the first rescue chopper came because his commander was pinned under the downed chopper. Eventually another helicopter came and they were able to free the commander.

Incidents like that proved the value of the sniper in not only holding off superior forces but also in terrorizing the enemy. Which brings me to why I think people like to use the Barrett rifles for sniper work. I just saw another story from Afghanistan where a small team of snipers was able to not only hold off a large force but they even kept them from installing IED's along a key road. They were also able to nail a guy setting up a mortar at around 1300 yards I think it was. Not only did they kill him but they pretty much disentegrated the upper part of his body. The sight of the enemy being killed in such a horrific manner caused the other forces in the location to pull back completely opening a key road. I think it's things like this that make the .50BMG such a weapon of war. Not only does it kill but it terrorizes much like the "death from above" attacks in Vietnam. Many think and thought that it would be better to continue the death from above tactics (carpet bombing) but there is a lot of collateral damage in an attack like that and in this day of our media going over and giving aid and comfort to the enemy we need to keep such killings held in check as much as possible. Personally I think a charge of treason against a few of our "journalists" (who don't take sides in any war) would work better but they don't ask me. At any rate the .50BMG gives us pinpoint control while still firing from such a long way off that the enemy doesn't know where it's coming from and seeing your friend's head suddenly disappear before you ever hear the rifle fire gives our troops a psychological edge and stuff like that matters in war.
Ok. Awesome. Thanks for the lesson. See even a self claimed know it all can still learn something. Jk.
Thank you
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:28 PM   #46
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to delierately hit a machine gun (4 in. receiver) at 2500 yards would require .2moa acuracy which is highly unlikely for the rifle or the shooter. PURE LUCK if it happened as described at all.

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Old 10-24-2011, 06:42 PM   #47
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to delierately hit a machine gun (4 in. receiver) at 2500 yards would require .2moa acuracy which is highly unlikely for the rifle or the shooter. PURE LUCK if it happened as described at all.
I'm pretty sure it happened as this isn't the first place I heard of it. I think I got an email from Military.com about it.
Hitting the receiver though? Yeah, I agree, Pure Luck.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:18 PM   #48
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.............


To follow the thread, I love older sniper systems, and accurate bolt guns in general. This new idea of shooting people from over a mile away is just ridiculous to me, there is very rarely a reason to do that. Inside of 1000 yards, the older bolt guns can take targets just as effectively as the new super cracked out rounds. ....
You make a valid point that really is the basis for why these threads always heat up with "this guy did this - so it's the best".

I don't have a range within 6 hours of me that would let me shoot beyond 1,000 yards. We just don't have those types of ranges here and the two that have "long range" competitions hold them at 600, 800 and 1,000 for benchrest.

For me personally? Shooting a sub moa group at 1,000 yards was one of the hardest, if not the most mind f*cking thing I have ever done. It took a lot of practice, and if anyone knows me, I don't have cheap kit, so it was DEFINITELY the shooter and not the gear.

There is next to zero reasons, even in a SHTF scenario that the "average" person would need to engage a target at 1,000 yards. What are you going to do? Shoot one guy and retreat into the woods? Achieving??? What exactly?

Sure, it could happen.

You could also win the lottery and discover the Fountain of Youth on your world travel getaway.

I mean come on, Carlos did it on a suicide mission in North Vietnam and to his last day he claimed it was a really great shot and a little luck.

In a battlefield condition anyone creating THAT kind of damage, at those kinds of ranges, is going to very quickly get you on the business end of the really big guns. Like artillery and mortars and skies filled so black with bombs you are going to WISH you had time to pray.

Even if you have an expansive farm, or multiple neighbors with 6 adjoining farms covering the state of Utah - Are you going to sit on the roof with your $5000 Custom Built Rig & your $3000 Nightforce Optics glassing every inch of territory hoping for a shot to present itself?

Get a good rifle that will allow you to stretch your limits and worry less about what one guy here or there can do with Model A and Cartridge X.

Just food for thought -

JD
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:57 PM   #49
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In a battlefield condition anyone creating THAT kind of damage, at those kinds of ranges, is going to very quickly get you on the business end of the really big guns. Like artillery and mortars and skies filled so black with bombs you are going to WISH you had time to pray.
Dillinger you're absolutely right that no one is going to need a 1000 yard sniper rifle. I don't need a Ferrari either but I'd like to have one even though I'm sure I'd be too tall to drive the thing. Even better I'd like to have enough money to buy a Ferrari so I could pay off my house.

Hatchcock made a big name for himself among the VC and the NVA and they sent all sorts of pros to try to knock him off. They sent their very best snipers including one woman who was exceptionally good. She took a dirt nap like the rest of them. Carlos knew he was fighting a suicide mission which is why he was so bold. He figured he wasn't going to survive anyway so why not go all out. That's essentially what I heard him say in that interview I saw a few days ago. He had the VC especially shaking in their boots and their commanders wanted that to stop so they threw everything but the kitchen sink at him. And he did say that record shot (for the time) was luck too. So did Harrison. The conditions had to be perfect to make the shot he did from the altitude to the wind to the humidity and who knows what else.

So maybe being an extremely skilled sniper isn't such a smart thing to do but these days you can make a super long range shot and they won't have any idea who you are. You definitely don't want to stand around in one place too long but in Iraq for example the enemy doesn't have a lot of artillery to fire at all the snipers we have put into action. Hathcock stood out like a sore thumb in Vietnam. That's not the case so much now.

Most sniper kills are within 1000 yards at most anyway. Even at that range it's hard to tell where the firing is coming from. In a place like Afghanistan, which is made for sniper shooting, a lot of the fighting is done from mountain to mountain anyway so a good long range shooter is a great to have around. But it isn't Afghanistan out my front door. It's a world away in fact. There are places a person with real skills could murder people left and right without being caught but Lord I hope no one around here is that whacked.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:16 PM   #50
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Jeff there is a lot of wisdom in your words and I can tell you and I have read a lot of the same books. I like you.

Here's the counter for long range, where did that shot come from?

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/04/02/sniper-finder-rushed-to-afghanistan/?wh=wh#axzz0kF2iE5Nr

These 'Sniper Finders' and others like them have been shown on Future Weapons and have been deployed to major Federal agencies.

I don't think the days of Zietsev (if he existed as told) and Koenig (if he existed at all) moving around the battlefield from place to place, taking lives at will, and never been found are going to continue for long.

One guy, or even a dozen like the German "Gechswader" or Wolfpack, roaming the urban environment of Post-SHTF Apocalypse and doing that kind of damage is going to bring down an angry hammer. Swiftly.

Plus have you packed 1000 rounds of 7.62 or 7mm, or God forbid .50BMG? That stuff be heavy yo.

JD

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